Low energy Input, mass hydrogen output methods in use.

[thrival]

Yes, Linnard Griffin made hydrogen with dilute sulfuric
acid and iron. He also regenerated it with reverse
polarity and a carbon rod. That regeneration is
simple electrolysis, electroplating, nothing esoteric.

All we're discussing here is a way of getting electricity
AND hydrogen from a regenerated cell. Since Linnard
didn't use another (dissimilar) metal with sufficient
potential difference as the other half of the cell, which
also can also be attacked by acid to produce hydrogen,
he couldn't realize what we're talking about.

[dkmacmillan]

A few questions about chemical production of hydrogen;

How do you turn it off when you park the car?

How do you insure the purity of hydrogen in the engine?

How much does it cost in relation to gas?

My guess is that in a car it would require a storage tank & some type of scrubber. Not inexpensive items, the chemicals & acids can't be cheap either. My logic is that if it can pay for itself in a year then it's worth the money. Sure KOH is expensive but a little goes a long way. Personally I think it would be cheaper to build an extremely efficient electrolysis/resonance cell & boost mileage as much as possible. Drive like that until it has payed for itself in saved gas & build another one. Keep going until you achieve OU or run out of room in your car. What do you guys think?

[kevinsatterfield]

Ken have you seen millenium cell's method?looks very impressive for a chemical reaction,but as Bob said it takes a lot of energy to produce the storage medium some kinda borate stuff.they have a cool video on the site

[thrival]

Ken:

I think you turn it off by breaking the circuit. After all,
it's a battery. The materials aren't expensive, only the
shim stock. What you said could just as well apply to
the chemical method; use it till it wears out/pays for
itself, then add more water, acid and/or chemicals.

Someday in the future I hope to build and experiment
with vaporlyzers (electrolyzers that run on vapors.)
No one I know has done that either, not that I care
(yawn.)

[dkmacmillan]

Generally I don't like strictly chemical setups. I think Millennium Cell could work but I still have my doubts. Good luck with the vaporlyzer. How would it work, high voltage like bingo gas?

[xvr80]

If you have a car that when you remove the key the radio still plays and windows and lights work for 5 mins. You could have a sensor like that, that just cuts the current when the battery is charged and you don't have your key in the ignition and when you put the key back in and turn the car to on and the current runs back through the cell from the battery producing metal and acid that when the current shuts off creates hydrogen and heat electricity.

[shine_runner01]

Hello Yall,


I've heard all kinds of things on the net weither running H2 & o2 is healthy for your engine.

Like for 1.) The firning temp should be alot higher in side the cylenders, thus it may be possible to burn a hole through a piston.

2.) That the o2 will reek havick & oxidize the hell out of the valves & such.

3.) That your exhuast is gonna rust & fall off very quick unless you change it all to stainless.

I guess that sorta makes sense, but does anyone know if any or all of this could very well happen?

Thanks


Ian

[dkmacmillan]

[thrival]

[Orange_Crusader]

I still despise using a ICE for this, but it's the most practical and feasable use we have right now. I'd much prefer H fuel cells (once we can cheaply seperate H2 and O2) or an alternative engine (higher efficency). An ICE is ~30% efficient at best , for several key flaws, like having to change direction (piston up-down) in its motion, which wastes a lot of kinetic energy. But for practical reasons, ICEs will have to do for this.

Your idea places a battery in between the cells (in wiring, at least), to handle the electrical and other losses, which is charged by an alternator powered by the engine. If you're interested, contact me (MSN or AOL- orangecrusader14 ) about my design to gain power to charge the battery (with luck, at a rate equal to greater than chemical or electrical losses from the cells) without having to use the ICE's alternator and sapping more power from it. It's very simple (one moving part, not counting the alternator, which would make it 2 moving parts, without gearing), and nearly idiot-proof, I believe. As long as the metal-acid reaction can generate a decent amount of heat (for a decent amount of time, even a minute (or less) should be suffucient) this system will work.

dkmacmillan, I'll give a crack at answering your questions.

The system, for safety, will require a bubbler, and a fairly large one at that (always want a small reserve, not simply on a produce-consume basis. Once the battery is disconnected (should be hooked up to car ignition at some point for a built-in on/off switch, or we can place one on the dash), and the cells cannot be charged, then the reaction will stop itself, and the active cell will continiue to produce hydrogen until the chems are used up. This excess hydroxy will be stored for the next time the car is started, since that takes up a bit more fuel than usual, and will give the system a bit of extra time to start up. It would be perfect to have the system shut down and start up with one cell fully charged, and ready to produce hydrogen, but I can't think of a foolproof way to hold off the reaction without wasting power...

All that's created in this system as a gas is hydrogen and oxygen, and no significant other things, except for what comes into the engine from outside sources (if needed). We can also place some filters, if there are any contaminants.

Cost is a tough thing to figure out. The chems are actually very cheap (rust, and a quicklime, both really cheap. The acid is a bit more of an investment, but all in all it should cost (considering all the components are cheap and easily available) no more than several hundred dollars, having to buy every single thing yourself. Getting a good acid-proof tank (getting a simple metal one coated is easy) costs a bit more, but these are all one-time costs, and the chems will rarely have to maintained or replaced.

Seeing as water costs far, far less than gas (or free if you have a source), fuel costs are near nothing. Pure water would be preffered, and although that's a bit more costly, it's still available for a few bucks for 20 L or so, a lot less than gas, going on a liter (or gallon) by liter basis. Initial costs are the biggest cost for this, and very little otherwise. Should be able to pay for itself within a few months, less than a year, I think.

This can be used in combination with a gas system, as a booster, or handle a large portion if gas use. The advantage of this over a usual system is that it isn't sapping power all of the time, and it creates its own as well. The chems are more or less a one-time buy, and have to be topped off or maintained rarely (hopefully), while electrolytes and other parts of a usual system have to be continually topped off and monitored, keeping levels at the right point. With this, you only add water, nothing else.

[thrival]

OrangeCrusader:

Thank you for stating the obvious so I didn't have to.
Sure I'm interested in your recharging system. Yes
ICE's are inefficient but OU covers that, right? I mean
Lee Rogers got his Dodge station wagon ICE to run on
nothing but compressed air and then recompressed the
exhaust air using a small displacement pump but much
higher RPM/gear ratio (where the fan used to be) for
continuopus regeneration of air and power. So an ICE
can be very efficient, depending how we use it. A 2 stroke
would be better.

thrival at graffiti dot net

[Orange_Crusader]

[eco]

[kevinsatterfield]

[eco]