Hydroxy gas stored in water?

[efoda]

[MarkinAustralia]

Hi
They discussed this at the yahoo hydroxy site and if you go the the yahoo hydronium site you will see a paper by Greg Watson with his theory supporting it.
I also wrote a paper in the yahoo Joe cell site about Walts discovery as it explains the opperation of the Joe Cell in "shandy Mode"
Mark

[Bob Boyce]

The explanation is very simple. Water under pressure (even atmospheric pressure) will absorb gases. When placed under vacuum, those dissolved gases will evolve, along with water vapor (the lower the pressure, the faster water will evaporate). Having the gases produced by a cell under vacuum analyzed, will show increased water vapor, nitrogen, and oxygen content (along with other atmospheric gases), as they are atmospheric gases that were dissolved in the water. There will be hydrogen as well if the water is used in electrolysis.

Does the volume of gas produced increase under vacuum? Yes, slightly. At least until all the dissolved gases are all evolved and nothing is left but water to evaporate. This just dilutes the hydroxy gas created. Bubbles will be larger due to expansion of the gases, but once returned to normal pressure, the gas will compress again.

I'm suprised this subject has taken so long to rerun. It has been almost 2 years since the last time the subject of vacuum was brought up.

I don't even bother to post about this vacuum thing on other forums. They seem to enjoy going off on tangents, which is why nothing ever gets accomplished on those forums. It used to annoy me, but now I get a chuckle every time some newby rediscovers some little nuance. Like Walt and his wider plate spacings...

Everyone on those forums disregard the fact that wider spacing requires higher voltage per cell, which reduces power efficiency. They all focus on how many amps they are pushing through a cell vs how much gas they are getting. Few even care about how many watts they are using to push a given current. At least most of the experimenters on this site have a good grasp of the concept of power efficiency.

Bob

[efoda]

Thanks for your reply Bob and Mark. Interesting comments. I must admit, I wasn't as focused on the vacuum aspect of the experiment as I was with the interesting aspect of the actual solubility of the gases themselves in water. Bob, your comments on vacuum makes sense relating to this, for as there is more gas in solution, with vaccum, the production should increase. Your comments on increased water vapor in this scenario are duly noted. Thanks for the references on current discussions Mark.

The main question that entered my mind when I heard of the experiment of burning the actual water based gased electrolyte mix was: "Is the solubility of all the gases produced with the type of electrolosys that we're doing enough to load the water to a point where the water itself can be used as fuel?"

I'm doubtful that the answer to that question would be a resounding yes, but seeing the motorcycle running on water after going through an interesting electrolyzer, and seeing some of the joe cell reactions and Marks paper makes me wonder if this knowledge might help us some way.

The main reason for my doubt, is that the solubility of hydrogen gas in water is quite low, leaving a very large percentage of water and a very diluted gas mixture. However, like Bob has mentioned many times, the type of gas being emitted is not your basic diatomic hydrogen, rather monatomic as well as monatomic oxygen. I'm wondering if the solubility of these gases is higher than normal which is why we are seeing some of these effects in peoples experimentation?

Yes, you're right Mark, there does some to be some discussion on Hydroxy recently, I hadn't noticed it there. I'm not sure I agree that the mixture becomes hydronium. If we reference the first three articles of Dalton's Theory of the Absorption of Gases by Water, it would seem the gases remain in solution in tact and are not chemically recombined (not sure if the hydronium group is claiming this though):

1. All gases that enter into water and other liquids by means of pressure, and are wholly disengaged again by the removal of that pressure, are mechanically mixed with the liquid, and not chemically combined with it.

2. Gases so mixed with water, &c. retain their elasticity or repulsive power amongst their own particles, just the same in the water as out of it, the intervening water having no other influence in this respect than a mere vacuum.

3. Each gas is retained in water by the pressure of gas of its own kind incumbent on its surface abstractedly considered, no other gas with which it may be mixed having any permanent influence in this respect.

Well, anyway, some more things to think about. Sometimes looking at what we're doing from many angles can give us more insight.

[MarkinAustralia]

Thanks Bob,
Sometimes my data doent go back far enough and I try and avoid the re runs.
Well I can assure you I and a few others are dillegently reproducing your cell design. However as part of my education I am testing each factor or influence trying to gain an understanding. Both you and Alaska Star inspired me to the hands on approach. So far what I have seen is only the people who build exactly to your specs are getting the best efficiencies. I got into a lot of trouble (should see my private emails) when I dare question Frank Roberts latest claims ,when I know of know one who ever successfully got anywhere near his results. I have seen many cases of people even with straight electrolysis getting extremely good results ...but following what you do exactly.
I also copped heaps from the Joe cell people when I explained what could be happenning there. I have to back of or the threats will start again.
Thanks Bob for everything
Mark