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OUPower.com • View topic - A novel water electrolysis using an ultra-short-pulse power

A novel water electrolysis using an ultra-short-pulse power

This forum is for discussing anything related to electrolysis and electrolyzer designs.

A novel water electrolysis using an ultra-short-pulse power

Postby decisive » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:03 pm

This my first post though I have been reading here for about a month ever since I saw the Stan Meyers video. I am a scientist (medical field), but I have very little knowledge of electronics. However, as a scientist I know how to scan the scientific literature, and I have done so recently in regards to water electrolysis. While there are many articles that should interest everyone in this group, the two following abstracts should be of particular interest. I have a PDF version of the first one, but will have to go to the library for the second one and scan it.

Title: A novel method of hydrogen generation by water electrolysis using an ultra-short-pulse power supply

Author(s): Shimizu N, Hotta S, Sekiya T, Oda O
Source: JOURNAL OF APPLIED ELECTROCHEMISTRY 36 (4): 419-423 APR 2006

Document Type: Article
Language: English
Cited References: 10 Times Cited: 0

Abstract: A novel method of hydrogen generation by water electrolysis using ultra-short-pulse power supply is demonstrated. The ultra-short power supply consists of a static induction thyristor (SIThy) and a specific circuit which is called the inductive energy storage (IES) circuit. It was found that by using an ultra-short pulse with the width of 300 ns, electrolysis takes place with a mechanism dominated by electron transfer, which is different from the conventional diffusion limiting process in DC electrolysis.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Title: WATER ELECTROLYSIS AND PULSED DIRECT-CURRENT

Author(s): SHAABAN AH
Source: JOURNAL OF THE ELECTROCHEMICAL SOCIETY 140 (10): 2863-2867 OCT 1993

Document Type: Article
Language: English
Cited References: 16 Times Cited: 0

Abstract: The present study examined the effects of pulsed direct current (dc) on the performance of water electrolysis for hydrogen generation. The laboratory effort consisted of a series of tests using the Fm01-LC electrolytic cell, manufactured by ICI Chemicals and Polymers, and rated at 38 g of H-2/kA . h. Using a 10 weight percent sulfuric acid solution, the electrolytic cell performance was examined using nonpulsed dc, to determine the cells base-line performance and pulsed dc. The pulsed dc test runs were carried out using a square pulse for seven frequencies, ranging from 10 Hz to 40 kHz, and four duty cycles of 10, 25, 50, and 80%. The hydrogen generation rate was used instead of current in order to facilitate an accurate comparison. For the range of tested parameters, the results demonstrated that the nonpulsed dc operation required the least electrical power.
[/b]
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Postby waterbard » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:51 pm

BINGO.
Bzzz...
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Postby zapper » Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:24 am

Hi,

The conclusions of the two articles seem to be contradictory.

While the first article suggests that ultra-short pulses with a width of 300 nano-Seconds would be more efficient than conventional DC electrolysis.


The second article says "For the range of tested parameters, the results demonstrated that the non-pulsed dc operation required the least electrical power"

Is it not misleading ?
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Postby decisive » Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:19 am

Yes, the two papers seem to be contradicting one another, but again I don't have the electronics background to be conclusive. I would like to send these two articles to someone like Bob Boyce to review and summarize for us.
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Postby decisive » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:30 am

I think what is encouraging is that Dr. SHAABAN looked at this issue in 93 and no one has cited his work suggesting that no one in the mainstream field of electrolysis has investigated pulsed DC electrolysis of water for hydro production since then. As far as mainstream is concerned this is a closed issue. However, we know from Bob Boyce and Meyers that these systems have to be tuned so to speak. A lot depends on all the variables involved and I have a feeling that Dr. SHAABAN may not have systematically done that.

Dr. SHAABAN works for the air force and codeveloped a hydrogen generator for the military (search google). In reading Dave Lawton's old posts, I came across a PDF file of a military research project report by Dr. SHAABAN (see abstract below) on this issue of pulsed DC electrolysis. In the intro, he cites several mainstream scientists who claimed that pulsed DC was perhaps twice as effiscent as unpulsed DC. He was going to investigate this issue once and for all. However, in this report's conclusion section, he writes that some things were replicated, but others were not and that funding for the project was cut. It was clear that he wanted to do more work here, but was not able to do so due to funding cuts.

Bottomline: From the mainstream perspective, there seems to be alot of uncharted area in pulsed DC electrolysis from water (only one study since 93) and that found a gold nugget (eg the 2006 study above).

I think what happened was that the big boys studying pulsed DC electrolysis were intrigued with the use of this method for electroplating metals and that started a whole new branch of study, so the concept of pulsed DC electrolysis from water got left behind.

Also, if I had found 150 studies looking at pulsed DC electrolysis from water over the past 50 years and everyone says it doesn't work then I would not be too excited with the concept. But that is not the case at all.
There have been about six studies and most suggest something is going on here.

Most of these studies are old and I have to go pull them from the library. Like I said before, I would like to get these articles, send them to someone like Bob Boyce who is objective, yet open minded, and have him report back to us. If others are interested let me know. Unfortinuately, due to copyright laws, i do not think I can upload them to this forum, but I can justify sending copies to a select few as a research collaborative effort.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pulsed DC and Anode Depolarization in Water Electrolysis for Hydrogen Generation
Authors: Aly H. Shaaban; AIR FORCE CIVIL ENGINEERING SUPPORT AGENCY TYNDALL AFB FL ENGINEERING AND SER VICES LAB

Abstract: This research effort investigated the effects of anode depolarization and pulsed DC on the performance of the water electrolytic process for hydrogen generation. An experimental approach was implemented using the Fm01-LC electrolytic cell manufactured by ICI Chemical & Polymers Company. The Fm01-LC had a stainless steel cathode and platinum-coated titanium anode. Using a 10 percent by weight sulfuric acid as an electrolyte, the experimental results show that significant improvement in the performance of the water electrolysis is feasible. The anode depolarization process has the potential of improving the water electrolysis performance up to three times that of the conventional water electrolysis. On the other hand, Using pulsed DC caused current polarity reversal during the off period of the pulse. Placing a diode in the circuit prevented the polarity reversal but allowed the electrolytic cell to maintain a DC voltage level of 2.3 volts. The results of pulsed DC are in conflict with those reported in the literature. A basic research program is proposed to investigate the effects of pulsed DC, anode depolarization with the use of the state-of-the-art 3-D ultramicroelectrodes. jg p.3

Limitations: APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
Description: Final rept. Mar 90-Nov 92
Pages: 77
Report Date: AUG 94
Report number: A573792
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Postby decisive » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:32 am

More and more I think this is an area that people just have not investigated fully in mainstream science. No conspiracies here. Sure, the powers that be suppressed Tesla and others promoting free energy no doubt about it. And you see this too in the medical field with suppression of info on vitamins and self healing therapies in favor of drugs and profit.

But, having read alot about Stan Meyers now, I think in his case, he definitely had something, but he was paranoid, stingy, and may have deceived investors. He may have also tryed to conceal his true discoveries by purposely misleading others sending them on wild goose chases.

I think Shaaban probably thinks he gave the pulsed DC idea a fair shot, but I think he is wrong. Nonetheless, he would seem to have good intentions and not one to suppress information. For example, see this below that he wrote on a blog in 2004


Author:
Aly Shaaban
Date Posted:
November 24, 2004
Hydrogen is found in nature only chemically bonded with other elements. Water, hydrocarbon, carbohydrate, ammonia, and others materials are examples for that. The production of hydrogen as an energy carrier/storage will require renewable energy sources to extract it from these materials. Water electrolysis produces hydrogen and oxygen but needs DC electricity. To make it commercially viable, solar, wind, and other renewable energy sources will have to be used. Sooner or later the Bush administration will understand the complexity of the hydrogen economy and start funding efforts to make renewable technologies commercially viable and the only way to the hydrogen economy is to store the energy produced as hydrogen.
from: http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/re ... y?id=18953
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Postby Bob Boyce » Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:05 pm

It says it all right in his research paper for the air force. He had polarity reversal, and used a diode to prevent it. This means that the method he used to apply the pulses was improper. Improper application of the pulses is not only NOT going to show good results, it will test out as worst than straight DC, just like he says. So it does look like he was being honest, he apparently just does not know the proper methodology.

The idea of storing hydrogen for later use also has drawbacks in that stored hydrogen decays into parahydrogen over time and loses energy.

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Postby decisive » Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:38 pm

"The ability to perceive or think differently is more important than the knowledge gained"

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Postby zapper » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:20 am

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Postby Bob Boyce » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:31 am

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Postby decisive » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:14 pm

Thanks for the link to that paper, Zapper. As I said before, electronics and physics are perhaps my weakest subjects of knowledge, so I can't address your specific question. However, next time chemelec sounds off saying that people on this group are wasting their time trying to achieve above Faraday results, someone should send him this paper as it clearly references several mainstream scientific papers stating otherwise. Granted the methods used probably require equipment and materials that most 'average Joes' do not have access to, but at the very least it encourages us to continue thinking outside the box. Not to pick on chemelec as he is probably a great guy (girl?) with good intentions. In fact, people like chemelec only make me more motivated to prove them wrong. I run into people like that all the time in my own fields of research and it is always a great delight to prove them wrong.

I can tell you most people in mainstream science think just like chemelec because they have been trained early on to think within the limits of scientific dogma and they learn very quickly not to challenge the status quo. These folks however will never get a nobel prize because their thinking and creativity are limited. I don't put myself in this close minded group.

My father worked as a cable spliceman for the phone company for over thirty years. He was a simple man by many standards, but one thing he taught me is that nothing is impossible. He was a "McGuiver<sp?>" of sorts and could fix anything. For example, when I was seventeen and my speedometer went out in my old Datsun B210, we didn't have the money to buy the parts needed, so he fabricated the spiral coil mechanism out of cutting one out of a tin soup can. Needless to say it worked perfectly. He was also an electronics guru and specialized in radio systems when he was in the Navy. Thinking back, I wish I had paid more attention to his knowledge in this area as I am sure it would be helpful now in trying to learn about all this neat pulsed DC electrolysis stuff. Once he gets settled into his new home, I hope to get him interested in this stuff again now that he is retired and has time to play around.

Anyway, my point in writing all this is to encourage you guys to keep learning and keep doing your projects and not to be discouraged by the dissenters that sound off here every now and then. While you don't have the fancy equipment and access to shop engineers and materials that the mainstream scientists have in academia and industry, you are not constrained by the dogma and thus you are much freer to try things that others might not think of. Moreover, I am a firm believer that you are more creative when you have less to work with. I once heard an interview with Jack White of the rock band White Stripes. His breakthrough album only cost him 5K to produce and he used no computers, only analogue recording equipment with only four channels. The reason he did this was because he believed that you are more creative when you have less and he used the first blues musicians as examples. After all, their home made guitars only had 3 chords to work with and I don't have to convince you of what blues has done to advance many forms of music in our times.

I also understand first hand Bob's fear of public domain thieves in the area of patents. I hold a few patents in the area of pharmaceuticals (some of which are licensed and generating royalties) and I submit invention disclosures to the University on all my research before I publish. I know naive colleagues who have had their ideas stolen from big pharma and I get requests for meetings with big pharma all the time and I refuse to meet with them most of the time especially if they refuse to sign a CDA (a nondisclosure agreement). I prefer to work with smaller companies that I can trust. On this subject, I would advice you guys to become familiar with searching the US patent database <www.uspto.gov> before disclosing an idea that may be of significant value on a public forum. There is also alot of free info and advice on the website on how to go about filing an invention disclosure (for a small fee). Filing an invention disclosure will give you a protected date in time and also give you one year to gather more data needed for filing a patent. Unlike the days before the internet, you can do alot of things now in the initial stages without the need for a patent attorney. Fortunately, I have a patent office on campus, so I have the luxury of not having to do a lot of the expensive and tedious paperwork that independent inventors have to deal with.

I would also suggest that you scan the scientific literature because most scientists these days stay constrained within their little niche areas of expertise and fail to stand back and look at the bigger picture. I can't tell you how many times I have pieced together a novel idea by simple connecting the dots already published in the scientific or patent literature.
After all, Crick and Watson's discovery of DNA was largely already laid out for them in previous published research. They simply stood back and looked at the larger picture.

My favorite research tool for this hydrogen stuff is the web of knowledge <webofknowledge.com> because it will allow you to search topics within a database that contains most scientific journal and books in the world. It also allows you to track a particular line of research through time in the way that original paper was cited in the future. For example, Bockris is probably considered one of the world's authorities within the mainstream on hydrogen production systems. He wrote a theoretical paper in in 1985 titled "On the splitting of water. (see abstract below)" That paper has been cited 21 times and the web of knowledge allows me to quickly review the titles and abstracts of those papers. Now many of these journals (that are online) will charge you a price to get the PDF version of that paper unless like me you are affiliated with a University with a subscription. Unfortunately, we don't have one for the INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HYDROGEN ENERGY, so the article below cost me $30 bucks to get.

Others I have access to for free thru the University subscriptions. However, as I stated to Bob, I would be willing to share these papers with a select few legally and justified under research collaboration efforts if they are willing to give feedback on their utility for new ideas, but I can NOT and will NOT post them online for everyone because of copyright laws.

Now you may be asking yourself, “why in the hell is this academic researcher going out of his way to give his time and advice to those on this forum?”. The answer is rather simple actually. When I was 18 I lived through a direct hit of a category III hurricane on a small barrier island in NC and for 5 days my family and neighbors lived through what most in this country have never experienced. No clean water, food, sewer systems, and in some cases adequate shelter for nearly a week. I learned first hand how dependent we all are on comforts of modern day civilization. I have never forgotten that experience, and though I pray it never happens, there may come a day when something like that happens again but on a much larger scale than even what the folks down in New Orleans’s faced. If and when that happens, it will be the free thinking creative folks that have found themselves on this forum who are going to be the leaders, thinkers, and the ones who survive and rebuild this great country. Also, I just want to learn more about making inexpensive hydrogen from water using everything tools and materials to impress my three boys the same way my dad used to impress me.

BOCKRIS JO, DANDAPANI B, COCKE D, et al.
ON THE SPLITTING OF WATER
INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HYDROGEN ENERGY 10 (3): 179-201 1985
Times Cited: 21

Abstract
Future energy needs and requirements in manufacturing processes (like fertilizers, synfuels, etc.) makes hydrogen an important chemical commodity. It is projected that hydrogen required for various processes may reach 1.8 × 109 MBTU by the year 2000. This increases the importance of producing hydrogen especially from a cheap raw material like water. A survey of the different approaches for splitting water (electrolysis, plasmolysis, magnetolysis, magmalysis, photolysis, photoelectrochemical methods, radiolysis, etc.) is made and discussed in detail in this review.
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