Newbie Theories - Building an Efficient Hydrogen Cell

[biggeorge]

I've been lurking here for a while, reading all about hydrogen electrolysis generators for a while and I have several theories that need to be either shot down in flames or confirmed before I go spending money proving them.

Theory 1.
H20 is made up of 2 parts Hydrogen and 1 part Oxygen.
A typical electrolysis cell has + and - plates to separate these elements.
Hydrogen is attracted to the negative plate(s) and Oxygen is attracted to the positive plate(s)

The thing I can't get my head around is that there will be 2 hydrogen molecules produced for evey oxygen molecule.

So why aren't the cells designed with twice as many hydrogen plates as to oxygen plates?

Eg.

- + - | - + - | - + - |

- = negative hydrogen
+ = positive oxygen
| = blank plate or empty space


Theory 2.

Has anyone tried using s/steel ballbearings instead of plates?
The benefits I see are that there will be a much greater surface area involved, in a smaller area of space. The water will be able to easily penetrate the entire container and fill in the spaces between the ballbearings, making good contact with the entire surface of the balls.

So the container could possibly be a a round plastic cylinder, with a round plastic cylinder inside it.

Both cylinders will be full of s/s balls but the inner and outer cylinders will not be allowed to contact balls from either, preventing a direct short circuit. To allow water flow between them the inner cylinder could be made from plastic mesh or simply plastic pipe with small holes drilled in it.

It would then be a simply matter of shoving a s/steel probe down each chamber of balls and the probe allowed to contact the balls in each chamber to allow electricity flow.

In theory, you could easily separate each of the hydrogen or oxygen as it comes out of the each chamber.

-------

I have already built my 12v pulse width modulator, have a good supply of 316 stainless rod, nuts and washers. All I need to do now is build my electrolysis plates / ballbearing chamber but I am stuck at this point trying to decide which way to go.

I really like the ballbearing theory, I think it has a LOT of potential in making a very compact and efficient electrolysis device.

My sequence of testing and development for this project will be as follows.
1. Get the damn thing working.
2. Efficiently...
3. Install it on my 4 stroke lawnmower, get it running.
4. Build a bigger one if necessary, and install it on a small sturdy engined car such as a datsun, and get it running.
5. If it works... Spread the word so everyone can have cheap cars and lie low so the bad people don't come and get me..

Thanks in advance for hearing my crazy theories. More to come later....

[BEMET]

1. Why not use zinc plated bb's on one side and copper plated bb's in the other?
2. Circulate exhaust gas heat back into the cell. You would need a plastic with some heat tolerance for your cell container and bb separator or
3. use a ss container that serves as your negative terminal as well.

[Jehu]

Humm, I like the idea of the bearings. Sounds very much like what Alaskastar was mentioning about surface area with Iron oxide or just Iron shavings.

BEMET; with the Zinc and Copper coated bb's, which would be the Anode and Cathode. I'm assuming you would use the copper ones for the cathode since copper will form oxides very quickly.

[280zbird]

Damn right! What kind of datsun?

[brian]

i built a test cell after reading a lab study that dr shieffler had released showing that production was increased using round electrodes, i used plated bb,s with a plastic canvas mesh(for knitting or sewing) as a dielectric between anode and cathode it was putting out a good amount of gas but of course the plating was removed from the anode side exposing the steel under it,also there has to be aggitation to liberate the gases between the bb,s or bearings,i have the perfect test cell to use that allready has a circulator pump.but have to wait on the ss bearings (when cash allows as usual)..have also been looking towards a corrigated stainless plate type set up.

[brian]

for the corigated the best i have found is a plate and frame heat exchanger for commercial hvac which have plates of 304 ss on up past 316 grades available in many sizes.

[biggeorge]

BEMET: That made no sense mate. I dont see any need to blow exhaust gas through it? I will be using a pulse width modulator / square wave power source.

If I need something extra to shake the bubbles off, why not just pump water into the cell from an external tank and have an overflow return hose at the top. The moving water should stir things up.

280zbird: I don't knw mate. I have a very good understanding of most nissan/datsun engines so anything from A series to L series. Would probably go with a L20b powered car because they have hardened valve seats and are damn near indestructible, even with a bit of detonation. They are a rugged engine and will take to some hydrogen experimentation quite nicely.

Brian: I would like it if you could try this idea. I priced some SS.BB's today and they are not cheap. 22c (australian $) each, and I would need a few thousand... They are 440 grade stainless and 8mm diameter. I haven't got any prices on 302, 304 or 316 yet. I think they will be cheaper in other parts of the world. Stainless is hell expensive here.

I have also been toying with the idea of using a SS kitchen sink or laundry tub and chopping it up into plates to make my first electrolysis cell. Has anyone done this before?
These are common in aus, people leave them on the side of the road, or sell them dirt cheap at garage sales.

[brian]

i understand the shortage or availability of ss there and sorry to say that most sinks and such stamped ss is lower grade. check it with a magnet if it sticks its probably 304 or less grade.

[brian]

jehu. can you expand on your avatar,is that a kitten with a sniper rifle? is that the cat that shot jfk? lol sorry had to ask. great picture.

[Jehu]

JFK as in Jack Russel, Foxie and Kelpie, yup the one and the same. Humm, I might call him Lee.


Just thinking about this reactor it could be an intresting design on Alaskastars system.

[biggeorge]

Ok, I think I got this ballbearing thing sorted...

The 316 SS nuts I bought the other day were 17 cents each and they are several times the size of the ballbearings I was thinking of using.

For the purposes of this experiment, purchasing 500 (eeeck) stainless steel 1/4" nuts is not a bad thing, even if the experiment is a failure. I will have a lifetime supply of stainless steel nuts.

They should be a suitable substitute for the ballbearings regardless, giving me plenty of surface area to make contact with the water.


I haven't read what alaskastar said, but the thought has crossed my mind of using stainless steel shavings or filings, and possibly mixing it in sand if the reaction needed to be slowed down.

Oooh, this is so exciting, I just know I'll nail this project one way or another. hehehehe!

[stephano]

I like the SS ball bearing idea, but sounds expensive.

How about the same arrangement, with the plastic sieve separator material, but with it filled with that 'course' SS scouring pads, with the same outside of the plastic separator?

I heard that more Hydrogen comes off sharp edges of SS easier, plenty of edges in those scouring pads. Im not talking brillo pads, these scourers are heavy duty, not to mention dead cheap also much lighter.

Steve

[Bob Boyce]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but when you have a design that has uneven spacing between electrodes, the current density concentrates at the point of least resistance, and the activity there is intense, at very poor efficiency, while the remainder of the electrode surface area goes largely unused. The electricity will always choose the path of least resistance.

So unless you can somehow keep spacing even around each sphere by using a sphere inside of a sphere or something similar, you'll experience this problem.

PS I've used those SS grill/pot scrubbers before as electrodes in water treatment units and they worked good for that. But for electrolysis you need more than just surface area, you need uniform electrode spacing at all gaps.

Bob

[stephano]

[biggeorge]