Low energy Input, mass hydrogen output methods in use.

[thrival]

zendog:

If you add iron powder or pieces to water/weak sulfuric acid solution
you will make lots of hydrogen and be left with iron sulfate, not iron
oxide. Or you could just start out with iron sulfate (the chemical) and
add just water. You won't make any hydrogen the first time in that
case, until you use two plates/electrodes to drive the acid from the
iron back into solution as Linnard Griffin shows in his videos. When
you turn the current off from your electrodes, the acid will attack
the iron again and you'll be making hydrogen.

Gypsum/plaster-of-paris is calcium with the sulfuric acid ion (sulfate)
already attached.

Sodium sulfate is glauber's salt, i.e. sodium with the sulfuric acid ion
(sulfate) attached.

Using two metals with sufficient eletro-potential difference, (this can be
gleaned from reading tables in books about batteries and electrolysis)
creates a battery when acidulated water is added. The type of cell
we're discussing just happens to off-gas hydrogen and oxygen while
doing what rechargable batteries do. Battery makers don't typically
want their batteries to off-gas because that could be an explosion
hazard and a liability for them, so they're careful to select materials
that don't off-gas. But in our case we intend to burn the hydrogen as
its made and introduce safeguards, like bubblers and the like.

Here's a lesson in basic chemistry. Take any alkali element and
any acid. For example:

Alkalis________________________Acids

iron_________________________sulfuric
calcium______________________hydrochloric
magnesium___________________citric
sodium______________________fumaric
titanium_____________________ascorbic

(etc.)

Take any item from the left hand column and add it to an item in the
right hand column, for example: iron and fumaric acid make iron
fumarate; or sodium and citric acid will make sodium citrate. You will
always know an acid-alkali compound by the 'ate' at the end of it. Not
all these reactions will make hydrogen tho. Some acid-alkali
compounds are safe food ingredients, others are highly poisonous.
At least we know that sulfuric acid with most metals does make more
or less hydrogen. I'm not a chemist! You should be reading more
educational material than just these web-boards. These reactions
are well known and widely used in industry. That the production of
hydrogen can be carried out this way, and yet isn't, is very curious.
One would think the power companies might have a stake in this.

[Orange_Crusader]

Yes, almost all metal/acid combinations will for plenty of H2. The difference is in how much H2, whether or not the end compound is soluble (far, far easier to reform using electrolysis), and for us, how much it costs. Aluminium wouldn't be too bad for this, it's decently reactive, just behind Mg, and 2 Al atoms bond with 3 sulfate atoms (Al2(SO4)3), a better ratio for weight that iron, zinc, or calcium. Adding it to sulfuric acid makes water, so adding to plain water and charging is a good idea.

To recharge the cells, where will the hydrogen for the sulfate to acid process come from? Using electrolysis will produce some O2 as well, and H2 to react with the sulfate and form acid. At least it should, and it gives us a small amount of H2 (collected and bubbled through, but that would make for a complicated system of valves and whatnot).

This is very simple stuff, and I also can't see why it hasn't been used before. Recharging is key, and I think we're semi-pioneers with that.

[thrival]

Orange:

Right-O with that.

I don't have tables for energy potentials handy. Where is Al with
respect to iron? The wider the difference, the more electricity we
will probably produce, and fewer number of cells required to meet
a specified voltage. Al & Fe are what Linnard Griffin shows in one
of his videos, making H2. He regenerates both together with a
carbon rod, but no reason I can see why ss electrodes in separate
containments might not also serve.

Now I have a question for you. Regenerating, one electrode is
positive and one negative. One side of metal will regenerate because
metal is positive and driven back to positive, but both? The other side
is negative as is acid. Will it ever let go of the acid? Maybe only one
side will make H2? I know that's still free, as is the electricity returned
by the cell, but that's been a question lurking in the back of my mind.
It's not a deal-breaker as the technology goes, but rather important if
using something like sodium, which needs enough acid in water to keep
it stable, because the more acid that iron grabs, the less sodium has,
and sodium in water likes to fulminate, and in the presence of hydrogen,
that can be dangerous

[zendog]

Thrival-

Thanks for all of the info. I need all the help I can get!
I appreciate your kind patience.
I have put iron into diluted sulphuric acid which of course eats up the iron readily creating hydrogen gas and leaving iron sulphate but does produce quite a bit of sulphur fumes also - yuk!
But now for reforming the sulphates back to metal..hmm.? I have put 12vdc to some calcium sulphate in water - lots of gas being produced(hydrogen, oxygen, steam plus ??) -gets pretty hot too. Turns a rust colored brown quickly but I doubt I will be able to reform it back to a metal with this simple process. Must be more to it than this for sure. Geo said a while back said we have to pulse it with certain frequencies in order to break the bond?
On another note -I tried to look it up, but couldn't find it - was wondering if calcium sulphate will react with potassium hydroxide?
Also want to say thanks to Orange for all his input and help too.

[thrival]

Zendog:

You're the first to actually do it on this board.

Making gas while recharging? That's very interesting, didn't
expect that. If outputting hydrogen during both half-cycles, damn
useful, but sounds like maybe some other action going on. As your
acid is driven out, may be bonding with something else, as suggested
by your color change. Were you using tap water or distilled? Tap water
containing chlorine, sodium fluoride, other minerals in aquafers
(depending where in the country you live) and/or organics could be
responsible for that. You know calcium is white and weak sulfuric
acid-water is clear, so the color must be coming from somewhere else,
your electrodes maybe? Which reminds me; car batteries (before they
came out with sealed models) used to require periodic addition of
DISTILLED water, so I think this cell will be limited to distilled as well.

But assuming the above hasn't tainted the cell from working, AlaskaStar
did mention pulses to shake bubbles off of plates, so square wave in the
higher frequencies might be the ticket, altho battery chargers work in
60 Hz range I believe. He said a large surface area and less chemicals
was the way. For sheer compactness I believe Ant Davison's "kettle" in
his project folder would serve superbly, but maybe not easy to have
shimstock cut so precisely.

Regenerating we expected to require some kind of ionic bridge or
membrane permeable to the sulfate ion (nafion), allowing those to
pass through but not actual chemicals. Someone posted another kind
of device using a leather membrane, but that won't work for our
application 'cause the sulfuric acid will eat it up.

[thrival]

...and in answer to your question, no potassium hydroxide should
be necessary for this cell. Sulfuric acid is your electrolyte, just like
in car batteries.

[zendog]

Thrival-

Yes, distilled water is a must. I can't get any just now so I first used some kind of store bought filtered but unchlorinated water. Only God knows whats all in there really. I've just switched to rain water and it looks better but still is a brown color.
I am using stainless steel of questionable grade(likely junk) so there are a LOT of variables here yet. The negative electrode got pretty gunked up in my first go around fairly quickly. I would like to get some copper electodes happening soon to see how they fair instead. Also of course want to get as much electrode exposer as possible to the fluids.
One might think that any sulphuric acid that is caused to seperate in this process would react immediately with any metal(calcium) that is available thereby creating hydrogen on the fly, right? So perhaps one can create a lot of hydrogen gas with #1) the regular electrolysis process from the H2O plus #2) the reaction of the now constantly seperating sulphuric acid and the newly available calcium metal ??
I noticed too in the first experiment that after I removed the power I measured a 1 volt charge produced from the cell so I guess its a bit of a battery in itself so might that not save on some of the power requirements?
Who knows what can be achieved with the right design with proper materials and then adding too the correct pulsed frequencies?

[zendog]

Thrival-

Sorry, I was/am still stuck wondering about what liquid alaskastar used in his "5 gallon bucket" experiment and so I was wondering if it was perhaps Potassium Hydroxide.
I haven't the foggiest notion if it reacts with gypsum or not and so that is why I asked.

[zendog]

HERE IT IS IN A ROUGH AND DIRTY FORM

Ok -you all will have to give me a bit of leeway(like a lot) since I am not a techhead and this is all new to me. I've no experience or background in either electricity or chemistry. I'm going to take a chance and toss it it out there for you all to think about. Its real late at night too where I am so I'm getting a bit silly perhaps.
Here's the ideas I propose -

1) forget about the 5 gallon bucket thing just for now
2) forget about a container of sulphuric acid
3) forget about 2 different metals within a solution of sulphuric acid
4) forget about 2 parts charging systems etc.
5) forget about saving the electricity
These are all valid points but lets just set it aside for now. Here's some reasons why.

If you put electrodes into a solution of sulphuric acid and put a charge to it - its not a happy thing as its stinky and noxious too. Just did that yesterday and its not good! was coughing and gagging for hours afterward
If you put two metals into sulphuric acid solution how do you control the reaction? you can't easily as it just does its thing until it finishes more or less, right? can get hot too! how do you measure it all etc. ..geez?
So, what's to do?
Well, from what everyone has pieced together from our friend alaskastar he's telling us (hinting rather)to use gypsum, right? which is cheap and plentiful and its the metal calcium with some sulphuric acid stuck to it, right? or called calcium sulphate CaSo4 or something like that..
Then some of you figured out that you put some of this here gypsum stuff into some water and give it an electric charge. This many have said will then release the sulphuric acid which then goes and eats the now released calcium thereby creating the much sought after hydrogen gas!
So, Alaskastar goes onto to tell us many times to think about LOTS of contact surface with the electrodes in the solution. So it only makes sense that the more contact is made then the more hydrogen gas will be created.
A cool thing I just learned tonight and was the clincher for me is that you still can make lots of gas and the electrodes don't have to be within millameteres like in regular electrolysis. So, you end up not requiring big volts or big amps to do the job-yahoo! This feature should allow lots of design leeway to accomplish getting lots of contact surface area with the electrodes! Should go great with Alaskastar's oft mentioned "suitcase" sized production unit I would think.
How do you control the reaction? easy! with the electric current off it stops producing gases immediately. Turn it on and away you go. Must be a way or two to control the volts and amps etc which in turn will control the gas produced. I suppose one will have to replenish the water often of course and then a bit of gypsum now and then.
Now, I/we need to figure out how to do the pulse frequencies and then we'll be away.

Well, that's kind of it in a nutshell. I got to sleep now.. I might be a way off the course here and it wouldn't suprise me if that is so. Therefore I will look forward to hearing the feedback and again apologize for the crudeness of this report.
HAPPY EXPERIMENTING
Special thanks to Alaskastar and Thrival and thanks to the rest of you guys too!

[thrival]

zendog:

Rainwater actually has an amount of dirt in it, as water droplets
collect around dirt particles in the air, point being it's not chemically
pure. But perfect purity may not be practical or achievable for this
and "good enough" is the goal. I'm curious what the gunk is.

I wouldn't waste time with copper, will make copper sulfate, hydrogen
too, but your electrodes will dissappear, eaten up by the soup.

If you can create H2 during the recharging process, then that solves
a problem we thought we had, with dead time when we thought the
cell made no hydrogen. I thought one cell could be charging while
another is discharging; but if you confirm that hydrogen is also made
during charging, that's great. Then only 2 compartments and two
materials are needed. Then again if only one material and two ss
electrodes makes hydrogen while charging and discharging, also
electricity while discharging, that would be wonderful. I'd be surprised
if that happened though, as not what Linnard's videos show. I did see
bubbles in his electrolysis altho he made no mention what they were
from. Only when he added the regenerated metal to acid-water did
he claim to be making hydrogen.

I'm pretty sure AlaskaStar said that he was NOT using hydroxides, and
not hydrochloric acid either. The reason I presume he was using sulfuric
acid was his mention of specific gravity (1.83 if I remember) which a
websearch led me to H2S04, which does produce hydrogen. There may
well be other chemicals but I stopped looking further when he said I'd
hit on it. Linus Pauling in General Chemistry quoted Latimer's book
of oxidation reactions, listing thousands of possible combinations and
reactions. How many of those produce H2 and are regenerative, only a
more diligent sleuth can say.

[thrival]

P.S. And if it were just a matter of wrapping insulated copper wire into a
coil to line the inside of a 5 gal. bucket, adding gypsum, water, and micro-
wave frequencies to make hydrogen, that would be too simple and I'd
personally start on it immediately. Heck, I've got several magnetrons
lying about from microwave ovens I parted out.

My understanding is the calcium and acid are not changed or destroyed.
You can only force the twins apart for a while before they hook up again.
If all we need do is run low V/I with gypsum between our electrodes to
make H2 forever, would be fabulous, something anyone could do, a
real no-brainer.

[kevinsatterfield]

So is it really that simple?

[kevinsatterfield]

what is it with a specific gravity of 1.83 that is the byproduct?

[thrival]

Kevin:

Your guess or research is as good as anyone's. I did a google search
for "specific gravity" 1.83 ...could be clay, 98% sulfuric acid, or carbon.
Since he said it wasn't clay, Let's say he started with a pile of fish bones
(calcium carbonate) that he gets for free, add sulfuric acid.
Would the sulfuric acid attack the calcium, make it soluble, precipitate
the carbon (or release it as a gas) AND make hydrogen? I don't know,
am not a chemist. Carbon as a byproduct, not worth very much, about
$10.00/ton.

I read elsewhere that bubbling ozonated oxygen through carbon makes
LOTS of electricity (called an air cell, a holy grail to many, if they only
knew where to look) and in the presence of heavy metals, causes gold
to grow inside the coal!

Seems the most educated are the least open to simple mysteries of
nature. OU leads to alchemy. Keep asking simple questions and you will
become a pariah. ("The stone the builders rejected, became the

cornerstone.")

[kevinsatterfield]

seems like it was prety clear that he used the gysom as a catalyst but i didnt know that was metal