Magnetic Hydrogen Electrolyzer

[AlaskaStar]

[FarrahDay]

[Hybrid]

[morehp]

from this site http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/indheat.html

(Although the heating due to eddy currents is desirable in this application, it is interesting to note that transformer manufacturers go to great lengths to avoid this phenomenon in their transformers. Laminated transformer cores, powdered iron cores and ferrites are all used to prevent eddy currents from flowing inside transformer cores. Inside a transformer the passage of eddy currents is highly undesirable because it causes heating of the magnetic core and represents power that is wasted.)


the AS set up is similar to this .... ie copper coil with the solution in the center of the coil

[FarrahDay]

Morehp

Yes, laminates reduce the overall effect of eddy currents by effectively containing their movement - each laminate being electrically isolated from the next.

Heating through eddy currents has it's place though and is the principle of operation of an Induction Furnace.

If you google 'Induction Furnace', you'll see that here the usually undesirable eddy currents are used to good effect in actually melting metals.

[FarrahDay]

[resident_genius]

this has been one of the best threads ive ever seen on this website. so much incredible knowledge has been passed around, and this time without much of the tempers!

this makes me happy. that is all.

[sparkgap]

Wow! Great link FarrahDay.

I agree with RG, this has been a productive and transformative thread.

It appears to be informally following the principles of dialogue as outlined by David Bohm:

1. The group agrees that no group-level decisions will be made in the conversation. "...In the dialogue group we are not going to decide what to do about anything. This is crucial. Otherwise we are not free. We must have an empty space where we are not obliged to anything, nor to come to any conclusions, nor to say anything or not say anything. It's open and free" (Bohm, "On Dialogue", p.18-19.)"

2. Each individual agrees to suspend judgement in the conversation. (Specifically, if the individual hears an idea s/he doesn't like, s/he does not attack that idea.) "...people in any group will bring to it assumptions, and as the group continues meeting, those assumptions will come up. What is called for is to suspend those assumptions, so that you neither carry them out nor suppress them. You don't believe them, nor do you disbelieve them; you don't judge them as good or bad...(Bohm, "On Dialogue", p. 22.)"

3. As these individuals "suspend judgement" they also simultaneously are as honest and transparent as possible. (Specifically, if the individual has a "good idea" that s/he might otherwise hold back from the group because it is too controversial, s/he will share that idea in this conversation.)

4. Individuals in the conversation try to build on other individuals' ideas in the conversation. As a result, the group often comes up with ideas that are far beyond what any of the individuals thought possible before the conversation began.

[sparkgap]

In reference to earlier conversation by Farrahday, AS, and others in regard to using multiple thicker coils (eg Brooks coil) as opposed to one long coil, I found this in the following patent 6,852,235.

excerpt:

"The distinct magnetic fields generated by each of the two smaller units are concentrated in the space between the magnetically energized conduits. The magnetic energy concentrated in the space between the non-contiguously connected, magnetically energized conduits is typically more than six times that found within the coiled electrical conductor of the larger unit. This enhanced point of magnetic fluid treatment is the result of the attraction of the non-contiguous, magnetically energized conduits to one another and the concentration of their distinct magnetic fields one distinct area."

Based on these findings, I wonder what would happen if you took a soft iron core, say 1/4 inch diameter rod, and cut it into pieces seperated by nonmagnetically conductive spacers inside a 1/4 inside diameter PVC pipe that fits inside down the middle of AS's long coil.

I would think that such an arrangement would create several mini electromagnets in the soft iron core that would force magnetic field strength thru the NaOH at multiple junction points along the pipe.

[FarrahDay]

Hi Sparky

With refrernce to the Principle of Dialogue

It's a nice ideal, but I think it is a lot easier said than done.

Much easier to implement Asimovs, 3 Laws of Robotics!

If we were all students in the same year at university, studying the same thing and hence all with a sound foundation on the subject, then it might be easier to adhere to the Principles of Dialogue.

Here though, we can have experienced, well educated people with a foundation in science often posting alongside people who may never have opened a science book. This is when dialogue can get difficult, communication can become next to useless, and things get very heated.

At times it is very, very difficult to suspend judgement, as what might seem like a plausible hypothesis to one person or persons lacking in crucial knowledge or education, will be seen as total utter nonsense to someone who knows better.

Suspending judgement on something that is clearly an hypothesis or sheer conjecture (a rational, plausible idea) is fair enough, but it's hard to suspend judgement on something you know to be science fact, but that others do not or will not accept as such.

To emphasise this, there is a guy on one forum (Hydrocars) that thinks that electricity is an atom, called the Lithium atom. And he also believes that hydrogen produced during electrolysis is not coming from water at all, but from impurities in the water! Worse still, he appears to have a loyal following of the equally insane. Trying to show him the error of his ways is a total waste of time because, of course... he knows better!

Now, try as I might, I can not bring myself to 'suspend my judgement' on the likes of this guy or anything he says. What someone like him brings to a discussion board is 'nothing good'. He plainly has an IQ of a particularly stupid single-celled organism, and for the welfare of the human race should have his testicles removed to prevent him breeding. In the past I think I've probably offered to do this for him

Needless to say, I don't suffer fools gladly and things tend to get very heated if and when this guy crawls out from under his stone. I hope I haven't tempted fate!

Anyway, I digress, I'm sure David Bohm has the very best of intentions.

[morehp]

my previous post was to just draw attention that the setup with its copper coil is most likely "inducting" eddy currents and that some are suggesting using cores in their setup. Nothing wrong with this as it's called experimentation... some great discoveries have occurred because of unanticipated results from experimenting.

so in our attempt to explain accurately what phenomenon is occurring, eddy currents may be a good thing and designing to enhance their effect is good to obtain the desired end goal.... or eddy currents are a bad thing and work against the desired end goal and thus the design should be to prevent or reduce their effect.

So a core of ferrite,soft iron or what ever it is, might be an enhancement or it may work against the end goal, and knowing how a core is affecting the setup will shed light or insight and bring us closer to know how the phenomenon works and why it worked in one set up but in another.

[kevinsatterfield]

you wuldnt want iron in the core... you wuld want s.s. strategicaly placed and spaced verticaly in the core of the tube.The s.s. will act as electrodes in a regular electrolysis cell but in this case simply sumpliment the reaction.You'd want them with flat faces and possitioned in the same way I described the vertical wires only on the 180 side you want the s.s. spaced so that each one from each side is facing the open gap from the opposite side spaced s.s.

[FarrahDay]

Agreed Morehp

This is where experimentation comes into it's own.

Although an iron core would vastly increase the inductance, as you say, creating eddy currents (and so heat) within a centrally located iron core would pehaps be undesirable. That said, a car ignition coil functions very well and would not seem to suffer too badly from eddy currents!

Many factors have to be taken into account and so this is where practical experimentation plays such a key role and becomes so important. We may only need to have one factor slightly out of whack (or perhaps not considered at all) to produce unforeseen or unpredicted results.

Until the science catches up, the practical side of things might actually be far more enlightening.

Alaska, I finally found my way to your project page.

Any chance of some details on your set up as requested in a previous post? Thanks.

[kevinsatterfield]

Faraday, science is far befoyond this ....Ive posted this referance several times.... you might say ..oh but Ive got 3 layers on one end... so wat its the same thing and been done in the 80's. science is way way beyond this I dont care wat anybody says but if you care look at patent #4599158.To think science needs to catch up is rediculous.Its technology thats catch'n up....not the science.

[FarrahDay]

Kevin

Struggled to make head or tail of your last couple of posts, but I think I've got the jist of your last one.

And, with all due respect, as far as I know, John Kansius's recent 'burning salt water' discovery was totally new to science.

The technology to do this clearly preceded the science to explain it - and as far as I know still does. Ie, it works but no one quite knows how...or why hence the science behind it is playing catch-up!

Even the science behind the humble electrolyser cannot easily be explained if you dig to the nitty-gritty, and indeed there is still some contention as to the actual electrochemistry involved - and the technology behind electrolysers has been around for a good while now.

As for patents, well some people might look at Meyer patents and say that the science is there already, but as we all know - and as illustrated nicely by Meyer - anyone can file a patent for any old garbage.

As my old mom always says, 'the proof is in the pudding'!