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OUPower.com • View topic - homemade membranes

homemade membranes

This forum is for discussing anything related to electrolysis and electrolyzer designs.

Postby thrival » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:27 am

Guys:

I only own one microwave and I use it to make food in. Not really equipped to experiment making membranes. If someone has a spare they're not afraid to fry, they'd be hero to the cause. :wink:

From the patent they say gamma rays or ions. Let's call microwaves ions for our purposes. So we evacuate the air, nuke the polyethylene sheet. Maybe a few times. I think we want it to look aged/yellowish but not melted, so probably medium to low setting, for like 10 minutes at a time? The micro-cheese holed plastic when soaked in acid, gets sulfur atoms that attach to the main polymer chain/backbone. Those are what conduct the sulfate ions. Otherwise the material is fairly impervious.

Keep it in vacuum until ready to soak in acid. Actually only .5% - 1.5% acid, in trichloethane. (Don't know if trichlorethylene would work but rhymes with poly-ethylene; available in paint dept. of hardware stores.
Weak acid supposedly causes more uniform sulfonation throughout the material. Water not recommended, contains oxygen, that competes with sulfer atoms.

How long to soak? Says one hour, then raise temp and soak for another hour, then soak in acetone or other solvent, then evaporate, and wash in water to remove any acid. One example they sulfonated for 5 hours. By guess and by gosh I'd say.

Sides of plastic milk jugs might be cut into 4" disks, would fit nicely into PVC pipe, H - cell design. Laminated layers.
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Postby thrival » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:35 am

Jabbering with a materials scientist, he's probably right that an ionic membrane may not be needed, just a mechanical one, like unglazed
ceramic or filter media.

I did a quick search on google and didn't find any natural mineral combinations of calcium, iron & sulfate (although I know it builds up
in water pipes). Maybe such a scale build-up on a porous divider, if it
occurs, would serve as the ionic membrane.
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Postby AA3PX » Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:08 pm

There is no known mechanism through which ordered complexity can arise from disorder by chance.

Where there is design....there you also find a Designer.
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Postby AntDavison » Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:02 am

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Postby AA3PX » Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:08 pm

There is no known mechanism through which ordered complexity can arise from disorder by chance.

Where there is design....there you also find a Designer.
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Postby thrival » Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:55 am

AA3PX:

Think about what Ant said, an inverted U straddling two containers. Now
add your dry chemicals. I've never seen dry chemicals flow up a tube, right?
Flanges _| |_ on the tube ends should keep most of the
chemicals and gasses out of the tube, while providing a clear electrolyte
path for ions to sail through. I"ve seen flexible 4" plastic pipe at garden
centers. If a mechanical membrane were needed, I'd use an acid-resistant
filter media with a pore size just smaller than the particle size of the chemicals
I was using. Spun polyethylene fiber filter media is pretty
common, and cheap. Flo-tech, Inc. in Plymouth, MI sells it.
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cool

Postby kevinsatterfield » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:52 pm

I think you can take apart a water system filter and use that material.
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Postby thrival » Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:34 pm

...or just shove a filter roll, half in, half out, of both ends of the inverted U!
If the rolls touch the bottom of your containers, That will keep the gasses
out of the tube! :idea: Good one Kevin!
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Postby thrival » Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:12 pm

Kevin:

I'm so excited about the simplicity of what you just said,
I want to kick myself in the head for not thinking of it,
and send you a pic.

thrival at graffiti dot net
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filter

Postby kevinsatterfield » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:18 am

I looked into that but couldnt find the size i was looking for then.The setup your working on now may fit with one of the sizes available at home depot,but I couldnt find just a replacement filter although you may have better luck.
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acid

Postby kevinsatterfield » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:22 am

And im not so sure it'll stand up to the acid youre using.Im trying to be more therough(ms) reading the posts before i reply so im sorry if i gave false hope and it doesnt work but if it does GO FOR IT!!!
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Postby thrival » Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:25 am

KevinSatterfield:

Spun polyethylene filter media is both common and
cheap (looks like coarser fiberglass mat with random
directions of fiber.) It can be rolled and stuffed into
a tube. Obviously it would have to be scrunched a
bit to fit into the tube, the part sticking out will have
a natural flare, get it? The flare prevents chemicals
from getting under the tube ends, so gasses can't get
in either, yet the media is absolutely porous to both
electrolyte and ions. See pic I'll post in my project folder.
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cool

Postby kevinsatterfield » Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:10 pm

Nice pic!!!
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k

Postby kevinsatterfield » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:07 pm

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Postby Joshua Siegel » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:56 pm

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