[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4752: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4754: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4755: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4756: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
OUPower.com • View topic - Magnetic Hydrogen Electrolyzer

Magnetic Hydrogen Electrolyzer

This forum is for discussions regarding Hydrogen Production by all means OTHER than Electrolysis. It is also for discussing the end results of Hydrogen Applications such as Water Engines & Water Cars.

Postby FarrahDay » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:36 am

Hi Jehu, yes I've seen your last post, glad you've found a few more electrons! :wink:

Ok, on a more positive note and in an effort to move forward, I thought it might be a good idea to - along with brief descriptions of what is happening - put down the chemical reactions that we do know, before playing about with a few we don't:

Taking sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is our electrolyte.

Now sodium hydroxide is not a true molecule, as unlike the H2O molecule of water, of which the atoms are covalently bonded, our sodium hydroxide atoms are electrovalently bonded (sometimes referred to as ionic bonds).

Unlike the water molecule, where the oxygen and hydrogen share electrons, the sodium atom actually gives an electron to the hydroxyl molecule. They stay together then simply due to the fact that like charges attract, the sodium now being a positive ion and the hydroxyl molecule now being a –ve ion.

This electrovalent bond is very weak compared to the covalent bond of the water molcule.

What then happens when we put NaOH into water is that the dipolar nature of the water molecule exhibits enough attraction to break the NaOH electrovalent bond. The Na+ is attracted toward the more electronegative oxygen atom while the OH- is attracted to the more electropositive hydrogen atoms of the water molecule.

This process by where the NaOH dissociates in water is called ionisation. It does not require any outside energy or influence to do this. Simply adding NaOH to water will cause it to ionise. All strong electrolytes exhibit these weak electovalent bonds and is the reason they so readily ionise in water.

So, our electrolyte solution consists of water molecules, sodium ions and hydroxyl ions:

NaOH + H2O = Na+, OH- and H2O

If we now apply a voltage across this electrolyte solution, the Na+ ions and the OH- ions are attracted to their respective oppositely charged electrodes. If these electrodes are submerged into the solution, we get electron exchanges. However, for reasons certainly too complex to talk about here, when the Na+ reaches the cathode, it is the water molecule that ionises, and H+ takes up an electron to become an atom and we get the familiar reaction resulting in hydrogen and oxygen gases

The Na+ does not react at the cathode but remains in the solution.*

So this is normal electrolysis. And, though Alaska and Kansius have their metal salt electrolytes, unlike in standard electrolysis there are no submerged electrodes in which to take up or supply electrons.

Herein lies the big mystery.

Now originally our sodium hydroxide was formed when sodium reacted with water:

Na + H2O = NaOH + H2

The metal sodium and water react to form sodium hydroxide and hydrogen (which is evolved as gas).

But, this reaction does not balance because there are a total of only two hydrogen atoms on the left whilst there are three on the right.

The balanced equation therefore is:

2Na + H2O = 2NaOH + H2

Basically this just shows that two sodium atoms are required to react with one water molecule to give two sodium hydroxide molecules and one hydrogen molecule

The initial reaction of sodium with water is highly exothermic - a lot of energy is dissipated in the form of heat. In fact enough heat is generated to cause the hydrogen being evolved to self-ignite.

And this is where it all now gets interesting; where all the hypotheses and conjecture comes into play as to what is happening in Alaska and Kasnzius’s processes. What gases are being evolved and just how is the electrolyte solution reacting… and to what??

We know that both solutions will be under the influence of electromagnetic radiation, and that this will induce movement of the charged ions, but at this stage that is pretty well all that we can state with any great conviction. At this point in the proceedings everything else is merely hypothesis and conjecture.

It might however, seem logical that if we could put back into our solution of Na+, OH- and H2O, all of the energy that was expended when the sodium reacted with the water in the first place, then we might conceivably create an on-going sodium/water reaction that would continually liberate hydrogen as long as there was water available.
Certainly this hypothesis is worthy of consideration.

As the sodium would be in single atom form and submerged within water, the water would absorb much of the heat generated as the sodium re-reacts with the water to become an ion again. This in turn would allow the hydrogen to rise to the surface and evolve as a gas without being instantly ignited. If this is happening, I expect that some form of cooling would have to be employed to stop the water reaching boiling point and evaporating. I’m sure however any heat generated could in itself be reused somewhere, somehow.

Determining a balanced equation for this possible scenario however may well prove to be a much greater challenge.

Knowing the gas or gases that is/are being evolved should tell us a lot.

If it is oxygen (or perhaps chlorine in the case of NaCl) along with hydrogen, then this to me suggests ionisation of water is somehow occurring. But if only hydrogen is evolved then this might suggest that the sodium is somehow being caused to de-ionise back into its very reactive atomic form.

All very interesting, and the actual part that the electromagnetic radiation is playing in all this is quite intriguing.

The way I see it, this is not some mystical, non-existent device residing solely in the empty space between the ears of some spaced-out looney tune living in cloud cuckoo land, a la Joe Cell, but a genuine article. No sir, we have two very reliable sources of this phenomenon, Alaska and Kanzius. We therefore have every reason to think we ourselves can recreate the process.

As we learn more, we will no doubt be in a better position to totally eliminate some hypotheses and conjecture while, no doubt fuelling others. With time I expect that we will better understand what is happening and be able to provide more structured and educated theories on the process – and hopefully crack it!

* I should add that this is a very simplistic explanation of electrolysis and many scientists still fail to agree on some aspects of it. For example, some scientists think that water ionises throughout the solution while others say it is only at the electrodes. You will see there is also the issue of the Na+ ion that has travelled t the cathode – what happens to it? Why doesn’t it clog up the cathode preventing the hydrogen ion to reach it? Does there not come a point in which all the current carrying Na+ ions are all at the cathode? These are just some of the questions that even some of the highest authorities on the subject do not yet fully understand or fail to agree on. However, not until you ask these questions in the first place do you realise that ‘simple’ electrolysis of water is far from simple!
Farrah Day.
FarrahDay
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 5:48 pm
Location: England

Postby AlaskaStar » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:56 am

FarrahDay:

Don't forget that I have stated in the past several times that I have NO FORMAL CHEMISTRY TRAINING OF ANY SORT. I learn as I go. I buy chemistry books and read them, using as reference points along the way. I posted this statement years ago.

I cannot offer a "balanced Equation" as you would have it.

I agree with you that scientists are in disagreement over HOW it works, but likewise, until someone figures it out...they will always agree to disagree.

If the NaOH is an unstable ionic bond, and water is the most stable and hard to break bond, then does this process no imply that it would be easier to break down the bonds in the NaOH than the H2O?

In separation of the Na from the OH, we have hydrogen and oxygen liberation from solution. Na added to water, while completely submerged, releases Hydrogen, while bonding to the Oxygen and the other hydrogen atom forming NaOH.

If the Magnetic Field causes the Na to separate from the OH, and the moment after the collapse, the Na and the H20 react to from NaOH and H, would this then be a better explanation for how it works?

I do however fail to see how it could produce only hydrogen, when hydrogen and oxygen are present in the water.

Welding cams together today for the Aerothermal Power....

I might reply on the board next week....

AlaskaStar
"Do we exist, or are we just an existence?"
User avatar
AlaskaStar
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:48 am
Location: Alaska

Postby resident_genius » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:40 pm

i had thought it was common knowledge, in a 10th grade auto shop class on electricity will tell you that electrons are never created, only put into motion...... i dunno where that statement got put out, but it wasnt meant to be a direct interpretation.
where is the line between tinkerer and scientist, scientist and madman, madman and genius?

http://resident-genius.com
'Nuff said.

Latest Endeavor:
http://www.youtube.com/user/SimonG2892?feature=mhw5
User avatar
resident_genius
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 612
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 2:52 pm
Location: New jersey

Postby sparkgap » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:10 pm

FarrahDay:

EXCELLENT POST!

Now, I understand why the jar gets hot when I add the NaOH to the water.

It’s refreshing to have someone here like yourself, who has such a strong knowledge base in this area and yet is still open-minded about new phenomena.
“I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as fraud.â€
sparkgap
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:08 pm
Location: Florida

Postby FarrahDay » Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:12 pm

Farrah Day.
FarrahDay
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 5:48 pm
Location: England

Postby FarrahDay » Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:13 pm

Farrah Day.
FarrahDay
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 5:48 pm
Location: England

Postby morehp » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:45 pm

morehp
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:52 pm

Postby AlaskaStar » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:47 pm

"Do we exist, or are we just an existence?"
User avatar
AlaskaStar
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:48 am
Location: Alaska

Postby Jehu » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:50 am

User avatar
Jehu
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:03 am
Location: Australia

Postby FarrahDay » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:41 am

Farrah Day.
FarrahDay
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 5:48 pm
Location: England

Postby FarrahDay » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:05 pm

Farrah Day.
FarrahDay
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 5:48 pm
Location: England

Postby FarrahDay » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:55 pm

Farrah Day.
FarrahDay
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 5:48 pm
Location: England

Postby Jehu » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:33 am

User avatar
Jehu
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:03 am
Location: Australia

Postby FarrahDay » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:52 am

Farrah Day.
FarrahDay
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 5:48 pm
Location: England

Postby Jehu » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:50 am

User avatar
Jehu
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:03 am
Location: Australia

PreviousNext

Return to Hydrogen Production non Electrolytic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests