Important information on Volt v.s Amp

[Hydrogenworld]

I think i just discoverd somthing important.

When we look att the aplication for hydroxid produktion in cars, jusaly everybod (almost) talks about 12V, deionised water, 0,5-30A and KOH/Lye, these are the common factors. Are we blinde, are we looking at it the wrong way?

I just discoverd an cell (tubes) that has a huge output in producktion whit no electrolyt and i didnt understand it at first glimt. BUT, i discoverd somthing whery important and listen to this.

The cell used only deionised water, 3,3 amps @ 96Volts. So i started thinking on the differens for the comon cells on this forum wich is somthing like 1,24-2Volts @ 5-30A (exempel) and 20-28% KOH solution and as it looks to me these cells produced the same amount, why?

Well for starters we can do a simple calculation.

1,24Volts x 30A = 37Watts and 96Volts x 3,3A = 316,8Watts .. there is more energy in the second calculation and only water.
We are limiting the voltage to 12V wich does almost nothing compared to 96Volts. We need to look at the watts, the total amount of energy

Increas the voltage, drop the KOH, use only deionised water and low ampers for starters.

This is open for discution!

[resident_genius]

well, for starters, the cell using 37 watts is obviously much, much more effecient. it seems to be a trade-off- lower the volts and the amps go way up. and these rumors about the HV systems, raise the volts, and the amps go way down.

however, watts is overall energy spent. and you cannot argue with 37 watts compared to a few hundred watts. (if the output is similar or same)

[Hydrogenworld]

True, if we only look at the total amount of watts, and in that case low watt is good. But, when you look at electromagnetism - wich we need to - than high voltage is what we are looking for. The Meyer cell is clearing now.
He´s system used what? 40.000Volts and 0,5A = 20.000 watts. And it is the watt that does the poling on the molecyle. Not the amp.
Remember that Meyer´s system used only 0,5 Amps - try that togheter wit lye. It´s the wrong way to look at it i tell you.

The Myer cell and this new cell i am looking at shows me the way. Even Myere used only deionised water, he even used tapwater in this system. It´s not that weird anyway - he transforms the voltage from 12V to 20-40.000V in the pulssystem. It´s simalar to a capacitor, thats a good exempel - and thats what the cell are. The cell is 2 electrodes and an insulator (water). The pulsgenerator charges the electrodes and then dumps it into the water and a discharges accur wich brakes the bondage between the hydrogen and oxygen and hydroxid is realeased!

I am going to test this whitin days and post a respond!

[resident_genius]

[hydroxrox]

well what about bob boyce he uses small amperage and high voltage and makes 14liter a minute, i don't see ANY of us making that kind of gas production

[chemelec]

[Hydrogenworld]

I am reading almost every post and the opinions are almost as many as members and nowone is telling (me) flat out how to produce HHO in an efficient way. I believe there is two ways to do this.

1: Using photashium phosphate, 1,24-2V + amps (high current) and destiled water.

2: Using destiled water, low current and an pulsgenerator or similar.

Low current is: low amp high volt - ex: 50.000V & 3 amps.
High current is: High amp low volt - ex: 2V & 30-40 amps.

P = U x I

P = 50.000 x 3 = 150.000W
P = 2 x 30 = 60W

Now, wich one of these calculations contains the most energy?

When things are complicated, go back to the begining. And to start this i need to understand electro chemestry and electro magnetism. The force whitin the cell is electro magnetism. Is not the conduktivety in the water that is my concern, it is @ what point the current interacts on the molecyle. So, even if i read all the information in the forum i am stil no where near to understand what accurs. Even if i "can" us KOH and high current, this doesent tell me anything.
The goal is always no chemicale, and since many people stops evolving when they believe that they know everything that is whort knowing just becose they have HHO makes me even more doubt that a solution is near.

So it is back to basic. But i know i can produce HHO, i have doen this, but at what expense? low fuel economy or water as a fuel?
Well, for me it is water as a fuel. I know that the ecnomy for moste people is the reasen why they do this, but for me it is the fuel.

When we use the power supply of the car, we almoust exlusive look at the amps. How much the generator and the battery can deliver and @ what point we draw to much. This is a ballance act. 5A - 10A - 30A is fine, no problem as long as the generator can coap whit it. But 0.5A @ 14,4V is better. But is this the limit? the 14,4V?
Not necessarily, plus when we look at an electromagnet there is always low current involved.
The magnetic field of electromagnets in the general case is given by Ohm´s law which says that the integral of the magnetizing field H around any closed loop of the field is equal to the sum of the current flowing through the loop

The electric current that arises in the simplest textbook situations would be classified as "free current"—for example, the current that passes through a wire or battery. In contrast, "bound current" arises principally in the context of bulk materials that can be magnetized. (All materials can to some extent.) When such a material is magnetized (e.g., by placing it in an external magnetic field), the electrons remain bound to their respective atoms, but behave as if they were orbiting the nucleus in a particular direction, creating a microscopic current. When the currents from all these atoms are put together, they create the same effect as a macroscopic current, circulating perpetually around the magnetized object. This is one source of "bound current". The other source is that there is an analogous thing called bound charge which arises in polarizable materials, and when the polarization changes, the bound charges move, creating another contribution to the "bound current".

In many respects, all current is fundamentally the same, microscopically. Nevertheless, there are often practical reasons for wanting to treat bound current differently from free current. The result is that the more "fundamental" Ampère's law, in terms of B, is sometimes put into the equivalent form below, which is in terms of H and the free current only.

Nowing this and that the water molecyle is dipol, the only possible conclution is electromagnetic forces. The electrodes should act as the atractionforce - the larger force whitin the cell. When the polarety of the electrodes is higher than the polarety in the molecyle, then and only then is the bonde between H and O seperated. But this is my teory. I know there exist formulations for this and that there are answers and that some people know what the answer is - like Myere. But i dont, so it is back to basic and understanding electromagnetism and electro chemstry.

The easy way or the highway...lol

[BBoat]

This Discussion is great as it starts where I am in my experimenting with Tube cells.

I have 3 "rough" cells, using a 14 inch long 1/4 inch wide solid core (well threaded SS rod actually - yes I know), and 2 - 304SS tubes of greater diameter (The largesr OD is 1/2 inch, giving a total surface area of approx 50sq inches per cell - (not getting into the threaded rod area issue))

When experimenting with power applications I readily noticed that the -+- design needed no electrolyte and the neutral plate design (from center -N+) needed a lot more electrolyte (closer to 1+ tsp per cell commercial lye from Menards)

However with the neutral plate design I was able to approach nearly identical power draws from the cells running singly and achieve uniform gas production before connecting them in series. (The -+- design was a lot more finicky, and the reason I retooled) I also noted that the increased lye content stops the production of the Rusty Jelly that comes off the 304ss. This was a nice trade-off for the increased lye concentration - less cleaning

In series they pump out the HHO, I measured 1.2L/min from the three with neutral plate set up, lots of waste heat however. (I'm sure some of this "production" was steam ) In parallel production was half that at best.

I'm retooling and will repost data from the -+- design with data from both series and parallel data.

I would love to try PWM, however circuit boards have laughed at me, if I step away from brute force E, (And I can get my elder brother the circuit guru to help) PWM and tuned tubes seems like the next logical step, the only problem I see is that if you are trying to start a standing harmonic wave in one of the reaction tubes.....shouldn't it be free to move? Every tube design I have seen including Meyers videos has the tubes firmly mounted- that seems to argue against harmonics aiding the process. (unless the goal was to get the harmonic pitch that resonates the entire apparatus, and shouldn't that actually destroy the cell from the inside out?)

Thanks for the discussion!
BBoat

[Hydrogenworld]

[resident_genius]

[chemelec]

[Hydrogenworld]

[chemelec]

[Hydrogenworld]

chemlec

A mutual joke there .. lol. I understand your point, i realy do, and i whant this technology to be at it´s best when it is presentet as the next step for automobiles that use fozilfuel. So i am looking to do this whit as little addetive as possible and no addetive if possible. The calculations i have for KOH shows a non-polution state, and by that i mean that KOH doesent get consumed in the process, så that is good.

Another thing is the difference in technology people use. it´s a jungle out there ..

But i am going to finde the right way for me and my future company, i hope!

[kevinsatterfield]