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OUPower.com • View topic - For the benefit of the Group

For the benefit of the Group

This forum is for discussing anything related to electrolysis and electrolyzer designs.

For the benefit of the Group

Postby lrg » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:07 am

I'M A NEW MEMBER TO THE GROUP.

PLEASE TAKE TIME TO READ WHAT I JUST FINISHED DISCLOSING TO CHRIS. UNLESS YOU KNOW THIS, YOU HAVEN'T GOT A CHANCE OF PRODUCING A 100% HHO-POWERED VEHICLE USING BRUTE FORCE ELECTROLYSIS.

Chris,

I've spent a bunch a time in the past few days looking at various HHO set ups. To-date, the best one I've seen, by far, is the double helix system (see for yourself at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLLRCuHWVq4). However, time and again I see the same recurring problem. People are working off a car battery for all their HHO production. This is a losing battle because, depending on true voltage output (usually around 13.8 volts), a typical car battery has less than 100 watts to spare on a continuous basis. Now I know what you're thinking. Batteries are designed to output between 500 to 700 amps. Yes, but only for a short time. After that, they lose their charge rapidly. The so-called 500 to 700 amps rating is nothing more than the cold cranking amp rating of 30 seconds!

The solution is to work off an alternator. However, there is another hurdle that most dabblers of HHO are not aware of, and until they are, they haven't got a chance in hell of producing a 100% HHO-powered vehicle, unless of course, their name is Stan Meyer.

When you understand what I'm about to disclose to you, a pulse-voltage electrolyser (Meyer's invention) is not necessary. Ordinary brute force electrolysis should suffice, provided your electrolyser electrode set up is efficient, such as the double helix configuration.

Anyway, without further ado, here's the deal...

Typical factory-installed alternators are rated for 70 to 100 amps. If your car has a unit that can produce a maximum 100 amps of current and the total demand from the car's electrical accessories (including battery) is only 20 amps, the alternator will only produce the necessary current (20 amps) to maintain target voltage, and not the full 100 amps! This is determined by the alternator's internal VOLTAGE REGULATOR. So if the voltage starts to fall below the target voltage (usually around 13.8 volts), the alternator produces more current to keep the voltage up. When demand for current is low, the full current capacity of the alternator is not used (produced). In other words, the VOLTAGE REGULATOR acts as a barrier against the other 80 amps!!

Do the math: 13.8 volts x 80 amps = 1,104 watts

The double helix configuration only consumes about 96 watts at any time. Now divide 1,104 watts by 96 watts. You get 11.5, right? Now picture HHO output of 11 double helix configured electrolysers. Do you understand the full ramification here??? From the comments I read, it appears the double helix is able to produce at least 4 - 5 LPM. So if you multiply that by 11, like, try 44 - 55 LPM.

Chris, you only need between 20 to 30 LPM of HHO production to power a V6 Ford Taurus to go 60 mph on a highway. But until you remove the VOLTAGE REGULATOR from the alternator or install a second high-output alternator (ratings range from 140 to 225 amps), you'll never get to that state.

Incidentally, it only takes ONE engine horsepower to produce each 25 amp block of alternator power. This is hardly a challenge for a V6 or V8.

Car manufacturers put internal voltage regulators in alternators to protect precious accessories, but, frankly, I don't think for a minute that that's only reason...

If you want to get to the Holy Grail, leave the factory-installed alternator alone because fried accessories is a bitch. Instead, install a second high-output unit (preferably the 225 amp puppy) to power a SEPARATE circuit for a scaled up double helix-type HHO set up. And whatever you do, DON'T FORGET TO REMOVE THE VOLTAGE REGULATOR FROM THE SECOND ALTERNATOR!!!

Again, do the math: 13.8 volts x 225 amps = 3,105 watts

A car engine only has to provide 9 horsepower to drive that second alternator.

Now divide 3,105 watts by 96 watts.

Get the picture?

Luc

P.S. Feel free to share the foregoing knowledge with as many people you know.




----- Original Message ----
From: Christopher Moore <Chris1@OUPower.com>
To: Luc Gaudreault <lucgaudreault@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2008 2:08:33 PM
Subject: Re: Welcome to OUPower.com Forums

Welcome Aboard... Care to share what that source is? I have an idea I know what your'e speaking of but I'm not that great with cars so I could be way off.

If you're worried I will share your idea have no fear. I simply like to stay as knowledgable as possible in these areas. Kind of a nice perk of my forums.


On 1/9/08, Luc Gaudreault <lucgaudreault@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chris,


I'm very interested in setting up an HHO supplemental fuel system to my three vehicles. I also want to pursue a 100% HHO-powered vehicle. I believe I can do the latter soon because, from what I read online, it appears people have overlooked untapped electrical power source in cars/trucks, which is not that obvious unless you're a mechanic. I'm not a licenced mechanic, but know where it is and how to deal with it.


I feel if I belong to as many good, forward-thinking, constructive forums, such as yours, learn from others, share my ideas and handiwork, we'll all get to the Holy Grail that much faster. Many brains is much better than one.


Moreover, for various reasons, it's abundantly clear to me that free energy technology cannot be hogged; it must be shared and disperse to as many parties as possible to defeat powerful, selfish interests.


There, hope the foregoing satisfies your requirements.


Luc
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Postby chemelec » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:16 pm

Luc, Well I really doubt you will succeed in making a 100% "Hydrogen on Demand" Car. But good luck to you.

However as a alternative, Ford announced that it will have a "Hydrogen Electric" car on the market in Canada, Next year. No gas.
Not sure if this will also be available in the USA.

A bit about alternators:
When you remove the voltage regulator on the alternator, the Voltage Output is Proportional to the RPM of the motor.
At About 2000 RPM, the Alternator puts out about 110 volts.
At about 4000 RPM, the alternator puts out about 220 Volts.
These Diodes are Only Rated at 200 Volts and most at about 100 amps.

Without the regulator, the output voltage tries to push as much current as the resistance allows. This can easily exceed the diode ratings and distroy them.

Also for about Every, In Theory, 746 Watts, But Probably more like every 300 to 400 watts of output, it will use about 1 hp from the motor.

Without the Regulator on the alternator, that may not be very many amps. (Example: 100 volts at 4 amps is 400 watts)

And How Much Hydrogen does this double helix system Produce for that 96 watts that your mentioning?
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Postby lrg » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:55 pm

I really appreciate your reply. You have inspired me to look further into the problem.

I have a solution.

Brute force electrolysis is all about power (wattage), so here's what I'm thinking...

1. Buy a second alternator, a high-output one capable of producing 200 amps or more.

2. Turn the three phase, high-output alternator into a three phase DC generator by modifying the two AC ring commutator into a split one ring variety. You'll also have to modify the brush set up as well.

3. Remove the voltage regulator and AC/DC rectifier. You no longer need these. The alternator is now a DC generator with no electrical encumbrances!!

4. Don't modify or remove the factory-installed alternator in your car. Leave it alone.

5. To install your new high-output, three phase DC generator, you have a few options. If your vehicle doesn't come equipped with air conditioning, great. Go and buy the appropriate a/c engine mount bracket from an auto wrecker, complete with a/c drive belt, and install the new DC generator. If your vehicle has a/c, you have a decision to make. You can either sacrifice the benefit of a/c by removing the a/c compressor and mounting the DC generator in its place or modify the engine mount of the a/c compressor or alternator to hold the DC generator as well, which is considerably more involve. I don't particularly care for a/c where I live, so off with the a/c compressor. Failing that, there is one more viable solution to work on an HHO project of this magnitude. Buy a pre-1990, V6 powered, rear wheel drive car equipped with an air conditioning system; they're real cheap and have roomy engine bays to work in. They also have CARBURETORS, which are considerably easier to work than fuel injection.

Again, the recurring problem with dabblers of HHO is adequate electrical power source. We have to think outside of the box here folks. This means stop using a vehicles alternator and battery for electrical power. Instead, build a new, separate DC circuit for your HHO electrolyser, complete with its own DC generator as described above.

So even if it takes one engine horsepower to get just a mere 300 to 400 watts, big deal! Ten sacrificial hp to get output of 3000 to 4000 watts is hardly a chore for a V6 or V8. But if your scaled up electrolyser electrode set up only requires half an amp for work properly under cool temperature conditions, you now have up to 6000 to 8000 volts at your disposal!!! That's a heck of a lot of HHO production brother.

(Keep in mind that you'll have to adjust the vehicle engine idling speed to compensate for the DC generator load.)

Again. We need to stay clear of vehicle alternator/battery/accessory electrical circuitry altogether and make our own instead. THAT'S THE SECRET.
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Postby readyakira » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:23 pm

I've said before and still think a couple driveshaft driven alternators would be a great way to go. With some simple circuitry to turn them on during deceleration and off during acceleration you could easily use inertia as a majority of the energy to power you HHO generator. You would still need a normal engine mounted alternator for idle conditions, or extended driving like freeway driving, but why not use the weight of the car/truck to your advantage? Of course this would be difficult on a front wheel drive, but for a rear wheel drive this should be easy for someone with a few tools on hand.
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Postby gagekko » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:36 am

readyakira,

I'm all for your idea. Are there any plans for these driveshaft driven alternators available?
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Separate Alternator

Postby kumaran » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:52 am

Hi Luc & Gary,

Luc, I read through your post and I agree partially with you and the rest goes to Gary. Your idea of using separate alternator for powering hydroxy cell is the way to go. Currently I'm doing some testing using DC motor belt driven car alternator on bench top. I make this setup to test Stan Meyer circuit later drop the idea. Instead, I use the alternator to power series cell which gave good gas output, 1.89LPM using 13.5V and 21A (94.30% efficiency). I can get pass 100% efficiency if each plate used is 72 sqr inches (now using 36 sqr inches plate). Second importance is to use thicker wire for connection. Smaller wire tends to get hot at anode connection to cell. Heat is waste of power so efficiency loss. Initial 13 plate generator idea came from Herby Walt where it’s not true series cell. We made 3mm hole in each bottom of the plate to solve electrolyte auto leveling problem.

I agree with Gary for not removing alternator regulator. I never experiment double helix cell so I don’t really know about its output and efficiency. People tend to get confused with gas output in submerged cell. When properly measure its gas output using submerged bottle (traditional way), the actual gas output is very much lesser than it looks. Luc, if you could confirm the gas output 4LPM to 5LPM using just 96 watt, then I can replicate the setup to confirm the claim.

But for series cell, each cell compartment needs around 2V. Above than 2V is waste of power where higher voltage does nothing to enhance gas production. So total of 6 to 7 cells needed to utilize 12V - 15V from alternator.

Since now, Bob Boyce back to this forum, hopefully he could contribute his opinion for this approach.
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Postby AlaskaStar » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:35 am

I have Wiring Schematics that can cure this question of EXACTLY how to re-wire an alternator, to not have a regulator, run the rotor at full field, AND NOT burn up the rotor, and comply with the laws of thermodynamics. I Sent 2 versions of 3 wiring schematics to well over 140 people.

I will call Mr Galleria in the morning and see if he would remove my name, phone number, and addresses from the schematic sheets, as well as my contact information and post the schematics?

I simply don't have time for that as my parts arrived (first bunch) today and I have to get busy, and I have a customer's engine to rebuild tomorrow.

there are 30+ people that I know have accomplished the 2nd alternator modifications and their "brute force" units are producing TOO MUCH TOO FAST, and they have to stop and refill all the time. maybe they need a pump and float?

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Postby Maintenanceman » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:00 pm

Hey Alaska,Will you plz send me a copy,or even have a copy sent to me of your alternator modifications.If you dont still have my Email address it is . eatmyshorts4fun@hotmail.com . Once again thanks for your input into this subject. And as always stay safe!
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Postby chemelec » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:45 pm

If you Email Me, the Word "ELECTRONIC" MUST appear in the Subject Line.

My NEW Website is:
http://chemelec.com
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Postby AlaskaStar » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:12 pm

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Postby AlaskaStar » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:21 pm

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Postby kumaran » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:56 pm

Regards,
Kumaran
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Postby AlaskaStar » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:03 am

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Postby Jspellman » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:30 am

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Postby AlaskaStar » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:23 am

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