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OUPower.com • View topic - Low energy Input, mass hydrogen output methods in use.

Low energy Input, mass hydrogen output methods in use.

This forum is for discussions regarding Hydrogen Production by all means OTHER than Electrolysis. It is also for discussing the end results of Hydrogen Applications such as Water Engines & Water Cars.

Postby Orange_Crusader » Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:38 pm

Awesome, this is really starting to take off now. I have a 0-25V power supply (max 8 amps), and I'll get a small amount of the needed chems, and try it out. It'll be crude (SS strips for electrodes, all I've got right now), and since I don't have any method of collecting and bouncing back the energy, I'll measure electricty output for the initial reaction, then fine tune and input the same amount (in Joules, simple calculations) and observe the process, and note the electricity output, approximate hydrogen output, lenght and strenght of the reaction when the acid and oxide are regenerated, and compare the 2 (initial and secondary) reactions. It'll be a small test, just to see how the reaction goes.

This reaction, essentially is a pulse. Acid eats metal, creates H2 and O2. Bonds broken, H2 and O2 taken from water (using gathered energy) and reaction starts over.

I noticed that, through almost the entire reaction, we have metal sulfates, already reacted, sitting there taking up valuable space. We've already gathered energy from their reactions, so let's use it now, instead of waiting until the entire amount is done, that's a bit wasteful.

As soons as we appy the gathered energy to the metal sulfates, they'l break apart, and react again just as fast. There'll be a microsecond gap between putting energy in, and getting it out, plus H2 and O2. To keep this as efficent as possible, wasting as little time as we can would keep the H2 flow near constant.

I like the 2-box idea, actually. Energy produced in one box immidiately (well, almost) traves to the other box to break bonds there, and vice versa. Eleminates the need for a complicated pulsing system, or microcontrollers.


As for keeping the liberated H2 and O2 from being absorbed in the regerating process, the only sure way of not having it used again is giving it a way to escape as soon as it's created, out of the top. This would need a large surface area to insure that almost all of the created H2 and O2 is collected, and not re-used. But that's impractical, so we need to find a decent surface area to allow enough of the gas to escape, but still have the unit remain portable and practical. We need something reproducable, not a 10x10 metre pool to make this work, and minimise losses.

Could we make 4+ (relatively, again, we need to have enough water to last a little while in each) thin compartments, stacked on top of one another, and connected in pairs for energy transfer? You bet, and we can keep it a decent size, I think.

Depending on what the strenght of the bonds is, and how much energy is needed or released in creating and breaking them, we can find out if, how often, and how large of a electrical pulse we need to break all of the metal sulfate bonds that were left behind (not broken by the gathered energy that was put back in), and keep all of the available sources of energy and H2 going. As tiny as the losses should be, it will stop it eventually, and keeping it at near 100% capacity at all times should keep the gas coming consistently.

If it's needed (which I think it will be, if not very often), we need a point at which to input the pulse "booster" (think a cup of coffee, keeps you going for a while, but wears off, so you have another to re-apply the effect). We should be able to let the gas production drop anywhere from 10-20% (maybe more, depending on H2 demand, or less) before introducting the pulse. Having it coming in very often, say, if the gas production drops 5% or so, would waste energy. True, the longer we wait, the larger of a pulse we'd need to deliver (more bonds to break, more energy needed), so we need a balance of efficency and energy needed to re-charge the reaction. :)
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Postby thrival » Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:15 pm

OrangeCrusader:

Glad you're motivated for all of us.

A logic gate detecting when the electricity
generated from the reaction falls below
a certain level, could be used to trigger
a switch to another cell, or a battery, to
start the regeneration. I think you called
it a chemical oscillator.

See: "homemade membranes" last
post of kevinsatterfield for patent #.
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Postby Telemetry » Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:15 pm

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Postby Orange_Crusader » Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:26 pm

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Postby Telemetry » Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:45 am

I have been doing some more research on electrodes. I think there is a good possibility that carbon will make a good anode. Specifically the carbon nano tube. Nanotubes have the highest surface area of any known substance and therefore should provide the highest potential for current and gas potential. This stuff can also be treated with oxy, peroxide, hydroxl, etc gruops to polarize and encourage water to .... umm ...?. This is getting off my tech charts but I think you can also build a nanotube anode that can be a high speed transistor. So if there turned out to be a nifty frequency for encouraging a reaction this stuff might be the vehicle for that.

I have been building equipment for producing nanotubes for years and havent given it a second thought... until now. I don't think this is relavent until we firm up the process, but once into refinement I think this will open up doors for boosting performance.

This stuff doesn't seem to function well in reverse and therefore does not seem to be a good reducer. So the H2 will not be made on this side. Perhaps a standard carbon electrode on the reduction side, or mabey a carbon coated vessel.

So much stuff is patented in this area I doubt you could even think nanotube without infringing. Its kinda sad that if you think of something and patend it first then nobody else is allowed to use it.
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Postby johnh » Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:09 am

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Postby thrival » Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:51 am

OrangeCrusader:

310M stainless is inert to sulfuric acid. It's what they make tanker trucks to carry the stuff. My understanding is it's one of the cheaper grades of stainless to boot. Shim stock as AntDavison suggested, or 40 mesh SS screen from Darby's ($50 bucks got me a 3' X 10' roll.)

The real issue is membranes. Unless we can make our own on the cheap, we're stuck.

Calcium and iron ARE dissimilar metals, in acid so you do get a charge, and a current. The condition is that one is the metal and one is the oxide. Calcium isn't normally thought of as a metal, but it is. The acid eats both, you get get H2 & current, till all is reduced to sulfate. then you pump current back in to regenerate. Two cells, one producing electricity, regenerating the other.

I would oscillate the DC, and clamp it to pulses, to charge a battery. The battery and cells would be in parallel to each other so the battery is recharging one of the cells while itself is being charged. When that cell is recharged, it toggles and recharges the other cell. The battery acts as a buffer, but with just an oscillator and voltage doubler, maybe the battery wouldn't even be necessary.

Yes, just go to www.uspto.gov under patents> search>
You'll figure it out. It's easy. Reading patents is better than engineering courses!
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Surface Area of Plates and stuff

Postby JaEnergy » Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:30 pm

Change Constant!
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Postby Dr Dimento » Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:52 pm

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Postby thrival » Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:12 am

Dr. Dimento:

Let not the perfect become the enemy of the good. An imperfect system might still be "good enough" for our needs.

Car batteries use sulfuric acid and lead. I haven't changed the battery in my truck since I bought it, over 5 years ago. If I was making free hydrogen for as long, wouldn't that be worth the minor investment in stainless steel and cheap chemicals? If I have to change chemicals every 6 months or a year or 5 years, hey I'd still be beating the oil companies.

JaEnergy:

Bigger plates, more electricity produced, faster regeneration, but has nothing to do with H2 output, which is created from acid eating the metals. Heat will increase the H2 output. In one of his mpegs, Linnard Griffin demonstrates using a hotplate (similar, but not exact same reaction.) Lots of waste heat from headers and tailpipe to accomplish this.

The inspiration for this came from AlaskaStar. Since he claimed to've been making H2 for the government, only he has experience with the method to date. I suppose it will take someone bleeding at the wallet to give it a go. Frankly I'm surprised by the number of people on this forum waiting for the next guy to go first and report his findings. I've always been motivated to discover things on my own. It's fun.

One issue I'm cogitating on is a bi-polar membrane. Kevin Satterfield posted a patent for making them but seems to require lab conditions unless we improvise somehow. I was thinking maybe pouring fiberglass resin mixed with a little sulfer or sulfuric acid, on filter paper. But I'm full up on other projects for the moment, building AlaskaStar's wicking carb which isn't free energy, but still damn useful. I'll be posting photos shortly if Chris approves.
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Postby pertyfly » Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:48 pm

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Postby thrival » Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:06 pm

pertyfly:

I emailed the photos to Chris our webmaster here, to include in misc. projects
if he likes them. The carb itself is so damn simple it doesn't require much
explanation. There's a blueprint of what I did with actual photos, most of
a flame arrestor, which is VERY important, as AlaskaStar mentioned
but some may have missed. Also I used a simple kerick mini-float valve
rather than two fuel pumps running gas in and out.
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Postby AntDavison » Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:03 am

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Postby thrival » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:22 am

AntDavison:

Wow! Great link, and everything in one place!

I may indeed have confused Fe with F, not knowing much
chemistry. I was quoting from Linus Pauling's
General Chemistry. But from the link you
reference, Ca & F seem to give the best potential
difference for the money.

For some reason I don't like vertically stacked
cells, since gases from below would need to pass
through upper layers, and that could cause
chemicals mixing, not to mention retard the flow
of gas. On the other hand if the chemicals form
discrete gravimetric layers as you suggest, could
work, and without a membrane.
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Postby AntDavison » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:57 am

hiya thrival

maybe i wasnt very clear

i was thinking of two chambers, sitting next to one another, like the classic daniell cell with a saltbridge - which is an inverted u tube

see how in the the reference electrode figure, the salt bridge is replaced by two tubes and another chamber an another fluid

what i thought could work is to coil a link tube, (so it looks like this -O-) mounted in the same way (half way up and) between two chambers (FeSO4 + CaSO4)... so including the two chambers you get something that looks like U-o-U ... where the chambers are represented by the "U"'s)

Because there is a coil in the middle of the link, the two electrolytes cant mix totally with one another, but the ions (cations and anions) can still pass thru the link

when i first saw how the gravity version of the Daniells cell was made, i thought that it wasnt very helpful for us as the cell would need to remain level and stationary, and any evolved gases would keep on mixing up the two layers of electrolytes, but if the interface between the two electrolytes happen in the coiled portion of the linking tube, then it wont be effected so much by motion, or gases elovling at the stainlessd plates

ps. my chemistry is also very poor, having stopped studing it when i was 16 :-(, but with your help (mega kudos for you for figuring it out) i think i understand the direction alaskastar is pointing us in ... make a battery with a voltage > 2v, and catch the hydrogen that is evolved in the dis/charging processes



ant :-)
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