good vibrations

[thrival]

Just following up on someone else's idea to vibrate plates. What if we
add piezo particles to our chemicals or between plates? Seems the
bass frequencies that tend to rattle windows, could work well.

When a piezo crystal expands at their resonant f, do they give back the
energy put in, when they return to their original dimensions (or otherwise?)
H2 capacitors? Plates could be really thin like foil, quartz sand as the
piezo/dielectric. Very cheap. I did this once using 60hz in a plastic
parts tray, full of wet sand, a plate on each end. It made mist, got hot
from the current flow (like a semiconductor); curious what HV spikes at variable f's might do.

More on piezos:

http://www.physikinstrumente.com/tutorial/4_15.html

[kansashonda]

ss pipe, I think is the answer to the electrode.

Start with .5" ss pipe and gradualy increas in diameter, .25" at a time until you reach the max that you can fit in the cell.

Take the .5" and cut a .25" slit right down the side of it. It must be very straight.

Then, weld a .125" wide piece of ss shim at the edge of one side of the slit, perpendicular to the pipe it self. And extening away from the pipe. NOT EXTING TWARD THE CENTER.

Now take a .75" pipe and repeat.

With the .5" inside the .75"pipe and the shims lined up on oposite sides of one another, weld the shim from the .5"pipe to the .75" pipe.

The goal is to not let the pipes toch, except for that one piont were you welded that ss shim in place. This makes all the pipes act together as one big eclectrode. How big is your PVC? That controls the size of the largest diameter pipe.

As for the length of the pipe. It is up to you. Your cell size, once agian is the determining factor.

Once you have added more layers this will have alot of surface area. It makes sense with PVC pipe as a case. From the top this will eventualy look like one of the puzzles that has the bb in it. You know, the little tilt it all around type of mazes. Get the bb from here to there to save scooby doo. Or something like that.

[AbbaRue]

So if I understand you correctly, this configuration of pipes will resonate well,
when a peizo electric transducer is used.
Or are you discribing this arangement for some other purpose?

[kansashonda]

If I am to understand Alaska correctly, it is not literaly shaking, or vibrations that would work the best. It is simply the frequency of D.C. pulse that you use for electolises.

My variation of the electode simply provides what I believe is the greatest possible surface area for the pvc pipe design. No short, no metal bending and no hand shears.

Note: this is ment to be used with the chemical Reaction M style devise.

Using .125" dowel rods to get the spacing right while welding would make it alot easier to build. About 4 dowel rods should do.

Also, If you build a piipe holder (jig) to get an acurate cut, you could use the piece you cut out of the pipeAA to weld it to the next pipeBB. Instead of using shim, use your scrap.



As for the electric idea, wich I think is safer and easier for the average joe. This pipe technique could be modified for use there as well. You could use ss pipe cut into halves inorder to obatian the spiral design that ant davidson has developed.
Lots esier than trying to shape the ss plates into spirals.

[thrival]

kansashonda:

I like your welded concentric pipe with slits idea and know where you're
coming from; ant's plate winding technique looks challenging. But why
not take shim stock as was his original purpose and just wind it into the
spiral with vertical spacers or clips top and bottom, every so often, to
maintain gap separation. No need to meausure for hole spacings that
way. And shimstock weighs a lot less than pipe or plates,

Is it more efficient to have (+) & (-) cell plates closely spaced? ...and if
so, how much so? I've read that 1-5mm gap is ideal, but I've also seen
electrolysis cells work with gaps far greater than that. If we have one
spiral coil per pipe containment (H or U configuration) one
pipe side (+) and the other (-) , then plates shorting out isn't even an
issue; in that case the whole point of spacing is simply allow room for
bubbles to rise. Winding shimstock requires no welder. Anyway a six-pack
of coiled cells will still be smaller, with 10X the surface area of a standard
box electrolyzer. That means we can run more current at less V.

I think the whole point of vibration is simply to shake the bubbles loose so
new ones can form more quickly. Of course if the vibration also just
happens to be a resonant frequency that facilitates splitting the water
molecule, then it serves double-duty. Most likely that two or more
frequencies is more effective than just one, as Bob Boyce has already
stated.

[kansashonda]

what about simpley moving water around, and through the cells, plates, or spirals. What ever your design may be. An electic fan mad to move water. Or the water jets use in fish tanks to make waves. I think that are stone may create a whole new problem. However, I belive that we are making this to hard.

Lets just try moving the water to physical break the gas free.

[thrival]

KansasHonda:

If we use AntDavidson's spiral coil idea (two plates
in one cell) then we could put a plastic speaker cone
at the bottom as suggested by AlaskaStar, and boom
the base. That should help to shake off some bubbles.
Also would make for a very compact unit, just one piece
of PVC pipe, with as much or more surface area as the
typical box/plate electrolyzer.

Or maybe use the spiral plate idea but add AlaskaStar's
chemical soup (dissimilar metals and H2SO4) and see if
standard electrolysis improves that way. Speaker optional.

[Cryptonic26]

I think Thrival is referring to a comment I made in another post when he posted this thread. If so, just to clarify a few things.

When I posted that, I wasn't looking for a way to shake bubbles of the electrode plates, all you need to do that is a small low voltage DC motor with an off balance flywheel; so I'm not concerned with getting the bubbles off through more exotic methods. Nor was it directly related to AlaskaStar's design.

What I was doing is playing with the idea that water molecules have a natural 'resonance', and that if you get the right frequency, you could potentially push it like a pendulum (just a timed nudge to get it going faster) increasing it's energy state, and making it easier to crack with electricity.

If you use sound, you have the benefit of using acoustics to amplify/focus your energy.


I saw once, an experiment in which two low frequency, high amp speakers were used to resonate a precise point in a spherical beaker (I cant think of what those are called).


The two speakers were set up at 90 degrees from the beaker. the sound waves entered the beaker, the spherical shape bounced them around, focusing them at the center of the beaker.

An interesting thing occurred.. a bright blue light appears dead center inside the beaker. On closer inspection, they reported the events of the reaction like so:

A bubble appears in the center of this acoustic chamber, and instantly collapses (2/1000 of a second or so) when it collapses, a bright blue light is emitted.

I think the word fusion was used several times.. but it was uncertain if that was the cause of the light.

Either way, I think this said a lot about the power of physical oscillation.


(You can see something simmilar with the pistol shrimp, which snaps its claw so fast that a shockwave stuns it's enimy... it also creates a brief flash of light... odd!)

[thrival]

Cryptonic26:

That's awesome. I wonder how much energy is in that blue flash?
Sam Barros' Powerlabs.org has some info on his site about water-arc
discharge explosions.

I saw similar experiment online somewhere, using just one speaker,
causing little flashes of light throughout the water. The amount of energy
they detected in the water was so great it was scary, yet no explosion or
bubbles, just flashes. The danger with sound I think is exceeding a certain
threshold where all hell breaks loose. Keeley had several accidents
and he was using mere drops in small, sealed iron spheres. He never
learned to control it and his investors who were hoping for a principle
that could be used in a motor, weren't too sympathetic.

You know the interesting thing about semiconductors is they can vibrate
AND conduct electricity. Also discovered something recently, talking
about cascade reactions in capacitors with conductive particles doped
into dielectrics. So lets say we add some silicon carbide grit between our
plates, distilled water, omit the electrolyte and crank up at least 5kV> @
20kHz>. If the cascade occurs, might want to set the V way up and current
way down beforehand for this experiment, otherwise it'll just get hot or
maybe make lots of mist. The SiC could act like little speakers. A few of
you have already built electrolyzers, and adding some grit between plates
isn't rocket science (unless of course it makes more hydrogen!)
Remember what AlaskaStar says about "surface area?" I know at least
one person who might be fiddling with this.

[Cryptonic26]

Speaking of transistors and vibrations..

I saw an interesting thing last night when I was fooling around with a couple tungsten electrodes..

It was a simple setup, a 5v pulse frequency (near 2,000 hz) driving a transistor. I connected two tungsten electrodes to the transistor and drove them with a 10v transformer.

When the electrodes are touching, they create a sound that can be heard barely. no sparks are evident, but possibly they are there.

They make audible sounds both in and out of tap water, so long as they are physicly touching.
The transistor heats rapidly however, so I could not test for more than 10 seconds at a time.. didnt want to burn it out. This might occur with other metals, but I havnt tested that yet, just a random observation with this current experiment.


(as an aside, I would like to point out that I got slight, but visible gas output differences with varrying frequencys of square white noise while using these tungsten electrodes. upwards near the 1,500 - 2,000 hrz scale. I havnt tested this further, and the differences were so slight as to be within the margin of error.. but interesting nonetheless.. Tho, I think bob's wave generator is better than this.. I'd like to try that out with tungsten plates sometime.)

[kevinsatterfield]

does the water/electrolyte not become surface area in a sealed serries electroylzer?

[thrival]

kevin:

The water doesn't count for surface area unless it's in contact with
polar opposites to tear it apart (between). That's what your plates
do. So the challenge becomes multiplying the surface area of your
plates, maybe using something other than, or in addition to, plates.

[kevinsatterfield]

so its not in contact with polar oppisites in a sealed serriess unit? hm guess not being that each plates is bi polar.....i dont understand why we cant count the water tho it does make gas between the plates,not just at the plates.

[thrival]

kevin:

Polar opposites, bi-polar opposites, same thing.
Yes it DOES make gas AT the plates, and the
surface area of the plates is but one limiting
factor.

But since you've built a lyzer and I haven't I'll
defer to whoever.

[AlaskaStar]