Low energy Input, mass hydrogen output methods in use.

[golden_guppy]

[mrgalleria]

[thrival]

mrgalleria:

You didn't necessarily do anything wrong, but if you watch Linnard's
videos, you'll see he used a hot plate to stimulate the reaction. It
appears that heat gets the ingredients bouncing around more actively
(110F is probably the minimum; try going hotter.) Also you might get
the same effect with current flowing between electrodes. You need
some added energy beyond those in the chemicals themselves, at
least for his method. On the other hand, adding iron powder to dilute
acid does seem to make H2 with just the inherent chemical
energy/ingredients, but probably also limited by ambient temp.

[owl]

mrgalleria:

Do you have any more results to report? I think that what you have described is the start of the reaction.

With regards to the Griffin Patent:
Has anyone else tried to duplicate this patent? There have been a number of references to it, but no results have been posted up to this point. Thrival has referenced it, as well as mrgalleria. I have read and re-read it as well as studied additional material. As mentioned, there are a lot of similarities between this thread and the patent. The patent of course has a lot more detail than the method that AlaskaStar has hinted at.
I would propose that we start with this patent as a basis to duplicate, and then when successful, move to AlaskaStar's method.

Thoughts from the forum participants?

[mrgalleria]

[mrgalleria]

[AlaskaStar]

Something's amiss here....
i looked up that thread...never heard of that site before now.
looked at the date. that day was not one of the good ones for me.
i had left a bunch of things...lets say "not locked down"...and i was somewhere where people weren't to be trusted any further than they could be thrown. and that was the day my laptop computer (old thing as it is) crashed. i mean CRASHED. i had to pruchase a new harddrive. the case of the computer looked like it was dropped on a hard surface.
i also note that this individual has not so much as added any responses to that site.

whoever they were, i do not know. maybe they know me, maybe they don't.

there are a pile of pranksters here in this area. i know a bunch of them personally, and do not respect their actions. they belong in Juneau, but for some reason or another, aren't.

well 'nuff said. i'm not going to argue either way. i was irresponsible about my stuff, and my computer WITH all data unlocked at the time, and so no point in trying to prove myself either way. it's almost Christmas now, and I hope to be online here again soon. got a few projects, a few things GIVEN to me that would be of great use to you guys, but the shipping is prohibitively expensive. (the object is incredibly HEAVY, and interestingly built and wired together) it is an emergency backup unit that was at the Tsunami Warning Center. Wired for 120 DC (with 10 car batteries) to 120 AC Output. i'm interested in the wavefrom generator, and how it's circuit handled the load. put 10 say 650 CCA batteries...and you have 6500 AMPS. that's a bunch of power! a circuit designed for that would be invaluable to you guys in the electrolysis arena.

right now it is ICED to the GROUND, and i have to wait 'till spring to get it.
it should be fun, there is a complete circuit diagram inside the inside cover for repairs. but that part is a parmanent part of the case. and access to it clearly with a digital camera is impossible (i tried already...lazy i guess, take the easy route) so when i get it, i'll have to disassemble the entire thing, and try to scan it, or copy it into the computer for y'all.

well see ya on the flip side!

Hopefully i can keep the "outlaws" happy tomorrow. they don't exactly like me; i'm the BLACK SHEEP of my family...they thought that the black sheep was 4 brothers up...and i proved them wrong. he just did drugs to no end. now he's out of rehab, and working.

aw well... G'Night!

AlaskaStar

[OgreOwner]

Hello All:

Owl invited me to this forum via a common friend. I bring to the table a healty amount of scepticism and a few years teaching AP Chemistry in High School. I have a piece of paper that says I am a Chemical Engineer. I took and passed the Engineer in Training exam at the end of my University experience. All that and 50 cents might get me a cup of hot chocolate at a lot of places. I am still learning.

I have tried to get at the video mentioned, both with a browser and my FTP program without success. Size of file is not a problem to me as I have a *really fast* connection to the backbone of the Internet.

Electrolysis and batteries are subjects that first year College Chemistry classes never seem to get into in any detail. I know that my College classes did not even talk about it or I was asleep when they did - and I got good grades in Inorganic Chemistry. I have been looking at alternative energy for about 5 years as a way to keep my brain working after leaving the University.

What I know about electrochemistry has been gleaned from reading College Chemistry Textbooks and on the Internet.

I love the Periodic Table of the Elements. It tells so much. If there is interest I will post a treatise for understanding the table for the non-chemist. It might demystify a few things for some of you.

The metals all have electrons in excess of the previous Noble Gas configurations. They want to lose them to form Positively charged ions and the non-metals all have unfilled valence shells that are just a few electrons short of the next Noble Gas configuration and they want to get them and become negatively charged ions. Many of the atoms do a sharing between two or more atoms to form complex ions like Nitrate, Nitrite, Sulfate and Sufite. Each of those is a different ion even though they are spelled close to each other. The desire to gain or lose electrons to form ions is the basis of all most chemical reactions. Most of the rest is positively charged ions being attracted to negatively charged ions. A good example is Table Salt NaCl. Sodium metal is very reactive - it wants to lose an electron and is very eager to do so. A bit in water strips off a Hydrogen atom from water to form Sodium Hydroxide and liberate Hydrogen gas. It is so energetic that the Hydrogen Gas liberated has the energy to react with atmospheric Oxygen and go BOOM!. I did it many times in my classroom. Chlorine gas can kill you. Once Chlorine has gained an electron it becomes Chloride - a thing your body tolerates. If Sodium gets with Chlorine - Sodium Chloride is the result. This reaction is so energetic that it needs to be done behind a solid shield if any humans are around. The product is something that is essential to life - table salt.

In a battery there is one thing that has extra electrons and one thing that wants those electrons. These two are united by a substance that can carry ions and each is tied to a terminal. The terminals are used to allow electrons to flow from one side to the other during discharge or suck electrons from one side and inject them into the other side when the battery is charged. Cell voltage is given by the relative desires of the two items to gain or lose electrons. Oxidation is the loss of electrons while Reduction is the gain of electrons. Reduction occurs at the positive terminal of a battery and oxidation occurs at the negative terminal. Cell voltages tend to be pretty low and many batteries are groups of cells stacked up so that the cell voltages add. The standard car battery is such a stacked arraingement.

To illustrate a cell, consider the Vanadium Redox battery. It has been researched by a female Chemical Engineer at the University of New South Wales. Her name is Maria Skyllas-Kazacos. The web site for the battery is at http://www.vrb.unsw.edu.au for those who want to look into it in greater detail. I use this as an example of a female scientist who is doing things that can change the world for the good of man. This battery can double the effective output of stream based electric generation systems and gives the Vanadium industry of NSW another market for Vanadium Pentoxide.

This battery is interesting becuase the only active things are Vanaduim ions on both sides of the battery. That is the beauty of it. We can talk about only one atom being Oxidized and Reduced. In the fully charged state, one side has lots of +2 Vanadium ions and the other side has lots of +5 Vanadium ions. The +5 ion wants to gain an electron to go down to the +4 (be reduced) and the +2 has an electron it will let you have so that it can go up to the +3 charge state (be Oxidized) if you want the electon badly enough. You have a battery if your desire to acquire an electron is greater than the other sides desire to keep it. The desires of many atoms and ions to gain an electron have been determined and are shown as voltages. They are shown on a table of Standard Reduction Potentials. The Metals all form only positively charged ions. If they gain an electron the value of your charge is reduced - thus Reduction is the gain of an electron.

When building a battery, you reverse the sign of the thing that is Oxidized (loses the electron) and add the potentials to give what your cell potential at standard states will be. The fun starts when you start using non-standard conditons. Stronger solutions, different temperatures. FUN!

The desire of atoms to gain or lose electrons is called electronegativity. The atoms on the periodic table have electronegativities. The non-metals have High electronegativities and the metals have low. That is why the metals react with the non-metals to form ions. Values of electronegatives have been determined and by compareing the two values you can get an indication of how strong the desire for the things to react with each other will be. In the case of ions, positively charged ions combine with negatively charged ions when the water is removed if they are soluable, or they come together and precipitate out of solution if they are not water soluable. I had my AP Chem students memorize a list of rules to help them on the AP Chem exam.

With regard to batteries, the energy needed to take away another electron from things has been determined and is expressed in terms of volts. This value is called the Standard Cell Potential. Returning to the Vanadium Battery, the V+5 gaining an electron and becoming V+4 is +1.00 volts. The V+3 gaining an electron to become V+2 is -0.26 volts.
Putting V+5 at one terminal and V+2 at the other terminal to give an oxidation reduction pair gives a theoretical voltage of 1.26 volts per cell. A fully charged cell will be all V+5 and V+2 and a fully discharged cell will all be V+4 and V+1. If there is nothing in the solutions that can "grab" any of the Vanadium ions and precipitate it out of solution, this battery should be able to be charged and discharged an infinite number of times. Since the charges are carried on ions in solution, there need to be some electrodes, say Stainless Steel or Carbon which just provide a site for the electrons to pass.

The interesting thing in this battery is the "Salt Bridge." This component must allow charges to equalize between the two solutions, but prevent the mixing of the solutions. Mixing the solutions is a *bad* thing. Some chemistrys generate so much Heat of Mixing that they can explode.

In the Vanadium battery, a mixing failure just produces a dead cell.

The people at NSW used Nafion - an expensive and strong Proton Exchange membrane. I wrote and have a small sample of it to play with. I am cheap or poor, take your pick. I think it can be done with gel filled tubes as salt bridges. A gel filled tube will allow charge carriers to pass, but should not allow mixing of the two solutions. A project I have on low burner is to prototype a home sized version of the Vanadium Redox battery that a homeowner could build, then write and sell a book about how to do it. Lead Acid batteries have a charge/discharge life span of a few years. People who are off-grid or grid-tied and generating end up spending a lot of money every few years for new batteries. A properly built Vanadium Redox battery should have an infinite life span with only minimal maintainence. I am noodlin on how to make stable components cheaply that will last for years...

I read the entire thread over the last two days. Some of it literally put me to sleep, my eyes glazed over and my head began to nod. I hope not to have that effect on you. I am accused of being long winded, but that is part and parcel of my teaching nature - put up with it!

I am noodling on the things that have been said, and there are a few things I need to spend some more time researching before I feel good about exposing my ignorance. Here is what I have gleaned so far:

AlaskaStar confirms that the fertilizer is Ammonium Sufphate

(I hate not being able to do sub and super scripts properly here hope this comes out properly)

This substane is an Ammonium Ion( +) with a Sulphate ions( -)
( NH ) (SO )
( 4 ) 4)

for a combined equation of NH4SO4

Fot this to be the final product, both ions need to be in the reaction vessels.

Sulfuric Acid gives the Sulfate ions easily obtained. It can be purchased at most any auto parts store. What Molar Concentration he is using is still an open question. How about it Alaska? Those in the know can purchase concentrated Sufluric Acid and dilute it down with DI or Distilled Water. I prefer to work with Distilled Water. In some ways I am a purist.

BTW - ON SOAPBOX

When mixing things, Always add the concentrated thing to the less concentrated.

In this case you would add Concentrated Acid being added to Water.

If there is an explosion, (think Heat of Mixing... look it up if you do not know what it is.) YOU will be covered in WATER with some of the acid. You might survive and be a little wiser as a result.

The BAD WAY results in you being covered with Concentrated ACID. You could be KILLED and would be standing at the Pearly Gates wondering what happend.

AWWW gee, do I have to do it that way? Acid to Water... YES!

OFF SOAPBOX

Two metals are used. Many metals could be used, but the comment about the hardware store eliminates a lot of them. I don't thing there will be any Vanadium here, so it was a good teaching tool that will not cloud the issue. You cannot find Vanadium at most hardware stores, unless they stock pottery supplies because Vanadium Pentoxide is a red powder used in coloring pottery... Naw...

For the water to come apart and produce Hydrogen reqires a voltage difference greater than about 2 or 3 volts. I kow that I am being pessimistic and that 1.42 volts is the book value for water dissassociation. My engineering training taught me that theroretical and actual are often not the same when it is put into practice.

If one of the metals is forming an oxide, it will steal the Oxygen from water resulting in liberation of Hydrogen gas. So it really has to want that oxygen...

How is the Ammonium Ion getting into the system? It must come in with one of the reacting species. What Ammoniates are used in construction?
That one needs some research.

For the metal that the acid is going to attack, Iron is a good one - easy to get and cheap. Ferric Sulphate or Ferrus Sulphate are easy to obtain. I think that one side of the battery is pretty much settled. Sulfuric Acid and Iron. The thing that is still out there is the other side of the battery.

Have I bored you you enough?

OgreOwner

[OgreOwner]

[Dan Dan]

Hey AlaskaStar (in perticular).
I'm vary interusted in your work, and thank you greatly for sharing what you have. But i dont quite understand how it all fits togather. Everything's kindof been jumbled together here and there. May you, or some one else for that matter, please explain how the "perpetual energy" system is a part of the frequency/ pulse electrolysis, that you were talking about back in july. and maybe some plans for getting the reaction going. I would also like an oppinion on wheather or not you think that this system http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb ... ns_doc.htm will work. i am skeptical about the low frequencies that their using. I've also heard that water realy doesnt have "a" resonate frequency, but rather a wide range of frequencies at which it is effected. see:

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/Ja ... .Ph.r.html
and
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/Ja ... .Ph.r.html

also alaskastar, earlier, you said that perpetual energy exists, but if that perpetual energy was driving a car, then wouldnt it be considered perpetual motion?

One more thing, do you think that your system could be put inside a car so that you dont need to store the hydrogen?

thanks and good luck.[/quote]

[AlaskaStar]

ok frequency of water. look at your microwave, ( and i suggest that you not disassemble the message as you read, it will make sense) when you put food in, and cook it, it comes out hot.

why?

they are pumping in high wattage EM (Electro-Magnetic) radio waves.
these waves are tuned in to vibrate water. the vibration inevetably liberates some water as steam, but more than that, it makes it vibrate, and like an orbital sander does, gets HOT. FRICTION on the molecular level.

i do not advocate or suggest using the magnetron or any component of a microwave in experimenting with hydrogen production from water. on fella did, and his results were that the water just got hot, which is not any NEW news, but it was to be expected.

now the frequency of vibration is the important part. JUST THE FREQUENCY, not the magnetron, not the magnetic fields, nor any part of the microwave, just the vibration. this is important, like shaking a paint can.

in the older books i have, there is a SHORT section on electrolysis, and it state what a bunch of you have already noticed: hydrogen production is great, but slumps off very quickly. why? the electrodes get coated with something not quite so conductive, it is the hydrogen and oxygen gas bubbles. these gas bubbles form what is called a RESISTIVE BARIER, like coating the electrodes with RUBBER. it is a resistor, NOT A CONDUCTOR. so what to do about these gasses? shake them off. that simple. easier said than done.

so we could...shake them off physically, or we could shake them electrically. the physical ones are destructive, so why not the electrical ones?

the old book tells of electrical pulses to "shake" the bubbles off. and the book also states that the technology does not exist to reliably perform such a task at any good length, or any good amperage and/or voltage. remember that it is an OLD book (like 1914-1920 era). so, with todays technology, you can get switching systems that can handle some impressive loads VERY CHEAPLY. if you own a ford or chevy modern automobile (1973-1996 CHEVY, and 1988-1994 FORD), then you have the circuit neeed, but will need one to run your car. it is the IGNITION module. it uses LOW VOLTAGE, LOW AMPERAGE signal pulses, to turn the high wattage (150 watts or so) ignition coil on and off to make it fire appropriately.
this particular circuit is quite rugged so it will work quite well.

so with a tone generator, or a computer generated On/OFF/ON/OFF pulse of the desired frequencies, you can turn this module on and off like an hall effect switch, and in effect turn the electrode power supply on and off like the ignition coil in your car.

see the ignition coil in your car does NOT fire when energized, it only fires when DE-ENERGIZED. this is when the magentic field collapses and gets induced to make the high voltage needed to make the spark at the end of the plug.
look up how to make one...or how one is made. also look up a MAGNETO.

Other questions:
the site mentioned on the "spirit of Maat". this system diagram i have seen before, and i have no doubt that it might work. haven't built it, but it does not mean that it cannot be built. the problems in hydrogen when run through a gasoline engine, is that gasoline fuel has sulfur in it, and when burned makes Sulfur Tri-Oxide. this is SO3. when you run it on hydrogen and make water, you have:

H2O, and SO3---mix well, or just put together---makes H2SO4.

this is not what you desire to have INSIDE your engine. especially when you turn it OFF! it starts to literally EAT YOUR ENGINE FROM THE INSIDE OUT. likewise the same happens to the exhaust system. the cure:

NEW ENGINE, NEVER FIRED OR EVER RUN AFTER ASSEMBLY. ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT THAT IT WAS NEVER RUN ON GASOLINE!

and finally,
would my system fit in a car?

YES. but i would rather not have that happening in the back of my car. i sometimes like to drive for fun, and switchback roads at highway speeds that were not designed for speeds greater that 35 MPH are not what you want that kinds of reaction experiencing on the highway.

i do it separate of the car, pressurize in glass lined tanks, and use and expansion bladder to help regulate into the engine. there are also anti-backflash valves to prevent problems.

AlaskaStar

[AlaskaStar]

WOW! at the writing of this, i just noticed that this thread has had over 47,800 HITS! thats a lot of reading!

anyways one of the questions was about perpetual motion. try to patent perpetual motion, just try it. see what you have to do. see what the requirements of that are, as compared to any other type of super exotic patent.

also note that perpetual motion machines when submitted to the patent office, they require proof like no other. they also require a functional prototype.

so as far as i know, it does exist, though i do not own one of these, a few people in the area tell of one that someone's uncle's best friend's buddy's whatever had one and was told to keep quiet, and not tell too many people. don't know if there's much truth to it, but quite possible considering the world we live in, and how much money that would "steal" from the people who have lots invested in the energy markets.

if you put it in perspective...some people here have tons invested in the oil that flows from Prudoe Bay to Valdez. now if someone comes along with something better, cheaper, and more viable in every way than oil, it would make that oil worth less than it was before, now they lose money, and it would seem to them that you are "stealing" from their profits. if they were not so small minded, they would realize that by jumping from oil to this new thing (whatever it is) that they could easily make their profits and then some.

AlaskaStar

[Dan Dan]

Thanks alaskastar! wow 3:30 am already!
Do you think that the frequency of 2.4Ghz (most comman microwave oven frequency) is the best frequency for "vibrating" water molecules in the range of 0-20Ghz? I have read somewhere that 10Ghz would be the best frequency to "resonate" water, or in other words, water obsorbs 10Ghz better than any other frequency. then again, ive read alot lot more about 2.4Ghz being used. This is all based on the belief that water doesnt have any particular resonate frequency (stated in my last post), that is, unless one h20 molecule is alone in space.

Also, im interested in how this all fits togather, the chemical reactions combined with pulse electrolysis. could you give us all one big overview on the big picture, along with all the meterials needed and how to set it up?
I know I'm aking alot now, im sorry, curiosity is taking over, but if you have some, could you give us some numbers.
e.g. hydrogen production with just pulse electrolysis.
Hydrogen production with just chemical reaction (if possable).
And Hydrogen production with combination of pulse electrolysis and chemical reaction.

But of course, i can understand if your not able to supply us with this info.

thanks again, you've been an incredible help.

[mrgalleria]

Maybe I am wrong, but I thought Alaska as well as others like him have made it as clear as it should be that you and me and everyone else has already been given almost limitless opportunity to work at finding these and other answers ourselves through hands on- money where your mouth is effort.

Read- take notes- get started! Look at other sites. For example- stanleymeyer.com has a very simple and promising method to run your car on water. Please try it, I am. It is almost common sense at this point that we are going to have to do this ourselves, the powers that be, and the mentality of the general public concur that if it could have been done, it would have been done already.
Now, what are you waiting for?

[AlaskaStar]

this is on the front page of this site, you must scroll below it to hit the link to get here:

WARNING! Many, if not all of the projects described within these pages, contain dangerous and potentially fatal consequences if you do not exercise proper precautions and follow standard safety procedures. The owner of this site takes no responsibility for injury sustained by anyone attempting to duplicate or utilize any of the information on this site. The information here is strictly for Educational Purposes! -USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!

there is a statement:

The information here is strctly for Educational Purposes!

with that in mind, i am extremely hesitant to divulge the entire chemical process. the following is the scenario I wish to avoid happening. i do not wish to give this site a national news bad name if someone gets hurt out of ignorance of what they do. this means that if they haven't a clue, and are not fully knowing what is taking place and get hurt it could mean some serious bad news for this site.

here's the scenario:

hillibilly joe decide to run his car on hydrogen. he find the chemical process. by removing his tank he puts a tank in there to hold it all. (for the sake of arguement, i'm picking some toxic materials, and stuff at random) he has his cigarette hanging out, lit, and is pouring sulfuric acid into this new tank. as he does so, he's hollaring at Martha-Lou to shut up, and is slopping it all over his pants. as the acid goes into his tank in that old Ford PINTO, it is generating hydrogen, which when in proximity to the lit cigarette, he's history. the rest follows in a local and then national news story. bad news for this site.

so now, i have this:

we can educate ourselves. here is a site in which to learn from, think, and contribute to. i do not know everything, nor will i. i do know a lot, but not everything. there is more ways to make hydrogen than there are ways to skin a cat.

so i can lead a horse to water but i cannot make him drink.

likewise, i could give you the answer, and having no clue as to how it was derived, you could be totally unaware of how to modify it to your use for the formula, and be totally in the dark as to modify it's output, or to regulate it. this can be a real danger.

so i have a fine line to walk. i want to give out the answer, but for the safety, and the liability, even with the "USE AT YOUR OWN RISK" i cannot justify the sue-happy american attitude to hold someone responsible for somebody else's stupidity that got them killed. it's like if my neighbor goes up on his roof to put a satellite dish on, because i informed him that those get good tv reception, and he falls off and dies. his wife then sues me for her husbands death. ugly scenario. but i would rather not partake in it.

so information i have, and if not, i can get.

sorry if i have offended anybody today. but i am entitled to opinions like everybody else. and i would rather see learning, and thought processes, than demands for information. there is literally piles of it out there. so have fun. i have stuff to do today. also my older brother's birthday today...might have some fun there...and follow with a midnight party.

AlaskaStar