Low energy Input, mass hydrogen output methods in use.

[Orange_Crusader]

I'll take a minute to explain this, since it is fairly important.

Yes, if oxygen is introduced into the mix, and allowed to react with the Ca or Fe ions, they'll make oxides (Fe much more slowly, rusting takes a while, but Ca rather quickly) and we'll make water.

This is now the tricky part for me, how to add only hydrogen to the cell... A small standard electrolysis unit, attached to the cell, and bubbled with an airstone from the bottom would help, but we still need a preferably 100% efficient way of seperating the two, to prevent from making oxides. I doubt that simply adding electricity to the soup (term now coined by thrival concerning the various compounds and ions to be found in the cell), made up of Fe2+ and SO4(2-) in one part, and Ca2+ and SO4(2-) in the other. Adding one side "plain" (no sulfate) and the other with a sulfate group, would simply have the sulfate spread across both compartment until it equalized. It is possible to draw it across to the other side using electricity, but I don't know how much electricity that would take to reach across both compartments. Drawing the sulfate away, or the metal away is a very nice idea, though, I just thought of a way to introduce H2 to the sullfate without affecting the metals. I'll post it later.

The acid is used up, and when exposed to hydrogen, regenerated into acid again. No problems there, done properly.

Too much electricity would be to the point of making hydroxy, as in electrolysis. That would expose the metals to oxygen making oxides, and water when reacted. Very small amounts only to pull part the molecules is good. Sub-volt, and milliamp amounts should do if the gaps aren't too big. Easy enough.

Simply moving the sulfate to the metal without it being an acid (H2SO4) won't make hydrogen, you'll still have sulfates floating around. We can use small amounts of electricity to seperate them from the metals, which is part of my idea. Without the hydrogens attached to it, the sulfate isn't an acid, and can't split water by itself, although it is reactive, it can't break water's bonds.

Both sides can react at the same time, and I expect them to. Just slightly modified my idea to have SO4 "intakes" and acid release ports open to both sides of the cell, Ca and Fe (I'd like something that can has the same combining capacity, but doesn't precipitate). Uses a small, low-power electrolysis unit without the need to seperate the oxygen out.

Adding both of the chems in as sulfates is best, we won't make water intitially, they'll have maximum concentration, but need to be charged to start going (no problem, I think). Adding only one as a sulfate would give half concentration spread over the compartments, and a slower reaction.

If the acid is forced to one side, it'll produce the hydrogen there, and the other side will stay inactive. The acid will be used up, and recharged.


Just had a thought.... A double compartment cell with Ca in both sides. No battery ablity, but we can produce hydrogen on one side, and when that stops, shuffle over and recharge the acid to go after the other side. Constant production. Or we can have 2 ports to have all of it constantly reacting. I prefer the battery way, since we can recover what can prove to be a good portion of electricity used.

This idea is far from gone, there are a few bits to work out (isolating things, recharging acid reliably (think I have it), etc. but the basic idea is very sound and doable. It's definetly more complex that standard electrolysis, and will therefore be harder to get working ideally. Don't give up on it yet. And many thanks to those who have done, and can do tests in the near future (i'll see what I can do about getting some CaSO4 as a test material for charging). I'd love to see this sprout off and become a used, practical (it is fairly so now) and accepted method of producing hydrogen. Often imitated, never duplicated, done first by OUPower (namely, all the members involved in this).

[thrival]

Orange:

OK, well thanks for being positive. I'd like to give everyone something
certain to work, only that what we have so far might have a few bugs
and don't want folks to get discouraged. I'm still not clear on many of
the points you've made because my self-education doesn't go that far.
Guess I'll need to bone up on chemistry. Funny a brain can have learning
blocks for years that one day just resolve themselves. I've had it happen
before. Looking forward to the day.

[thrival]

Orange:

Revisiting what you said, here's my view what I take will happen:

First, assuming only the Ca side saturated with SO4, small to moderate
amounts of electricity should move it into solution and start reacting with
the iron. At the same time, an electrolysis reaction is happening, making
H2 at the iron and oxide at the calcium. The imposed current can
drive most all the sulfates to the iron side. Rather than release as gas, the
Ca has bound all the O made (worse case scenario). Sending the sulfate in
the iron back to Ca side regenerates the iron and either 1) releases the O
or 2)reformulates back to water, or 3.) At equilibrium each side manifests
partial saturation and partial O retention, so that upon imposed current,
more or less H2 & O are released at both electrodes simultaneously, the
proportions changing the farther pushed in either direction. You can't split
water without releasing both gases at the same time.

The SO4/acid is exposed to H2 when its being made at either electrode. No
H2 injection should be necessary. If it were, our cell production would be
the only place to get it. In other words if we need hydrogen to make
hydrogen, we have nowhere and nothing to start with. The whole point of
the idea is to make H2 from water on the fly, not import it from
somewhere else.

On the other hand if both sides are saturated with acid to start with and
we push it out of the Ca side, either 1.) the Ca stays Ca, at which point the
recombining acid makes H2, or 2.) the Ca gets an O, and the recombining
acid becomes water again. Since the Fe side is already saturated, it can't
contribute toward making any H2.

I don't understand what you mean by acid ports unless you're talking
about sulfate ion conduits/unions or bridges with membranes, as already
discussed (hopefully not to death yet). If you mean something else,
please say so as it's starting to get confusing.

[Orange_Crusader]

I'll try to cram as much of the process in this as possible. This is basically a simple acid-metal reaction. The sulfuric acid eats both the Fe and Ca (not oxides) at the same time, producing only hydrogen. The water isn't split, so there's no O2 being released.

Once the acid is used up in eating away the metal, (the H2SO4 giving up its hydrogen), and the Fe and Ca are now FeSO4 and CaSO4 (which is a solid, non-soluble, and that's a problem for seperating the sulfate to reporduce acid). Since the FeSO4 is souble in water, it splits into SO4(2-), which isn't an acid without hydrogen being on it, and Fe2+, simply free iron ions floating around. Once the acid and metals are used up, nothng will be produced, since there's no acid to do that.

We can pull the sulfate ions and iron ions (using iron for simplicity) using a small amount of electricity, and using the ionic states (one has a negative charge, and the other a positive, so we can easily seperate them, those bonds aren't very strong, since it dissolves in water) to pull each one to its respective electrode. Yes, we can pull the Ca and Fe to opposite ends of their compartments, and the sulfates to the middle, in the bridge. I'll explain my idea soon for reforming the acid, it uses this idea of pulling them apart. There is a form of water filtration, where there are two plates, one on either side of a container, and a current is passed through them. The various ions on the water are pulled to the plates, leaving clean water between them, and the ions stuck to the plates until the current is turned off.

Hopefully, we won't have to use electricity to form the hydrogen (to bond to sulfates and form acid) all the time, just in cycles, when the acid is used up. An electric pH meter can keep track of when the acidity in the if neutral, or close to it, and turn on the current, and my idea for recharging it.

When it's done reacting, we'll pull the ions apart, and through a small, semi-isolaed eletrolysis unit, expose the sulfate to hydrogen and oxygen, but not the Ca or Fe. Explained below. The Ca and Fe stay as ions in their compartments, just sitting there stuck to their plates, with a small amount of electriciity holding them there.

Alright, here's the idea:

We needed a way to introduce hydrogen to the sulfate ions without exposing the Ca and Fe to oxygen (which would make water with the acid). The idea I have involves 2 membranes, one at either end of the bridge between the compartments. This leaves space between the membranes where the sulfate can go, but the metals can't (membrane, plus the small electrical current holding them down). In this space, we can have a small eletrolysis unit, with a small amount of electricity (no contant bubbling, just small bubbled forming on the plates) to react with the sulfate ions to make acid again. The newly made acid can then, as it's neutral, float down past the plates, or simply back through the membranes (if possible) and freely around the compartments to the Ca and Fe, in about equal amounts. The current is them turned off, the Ca and Fe are released from the plates, and start reacting en masse with the acid (hydrogen produced only). When that reaction is done, the current is turned on again and the ions drawn apart, and the acid regenrated with the small electrolysis unit. Very little power draw, a few volts at milliamps to simply keep the ions seperated and form tiny bubbles to react with the sulfates.

The plates that the Ca and Fe are drawn to are of only one polarity (yet to figure out how to make that work), or having them connected to the hydrogen producing plates in the middle (between the membranes, connected by wires). There would still be current gong between them, reaching across, but it would only be of one polarity, so no hydroxy production. These plates in the compartments (-ive) are connected to the -ive plates in the middle, but aren't near any +ive plates, so no production. Any Ca or Fe accidentally drawn to the middle will be stopped by the membranes, and simply be the first to react with the acid. No harm done, and still no oxygen contaminating the Fe or Ca. I'll make a drawing of this, since it's a bit confusing.

Agreed, having to inject H2 from another source would suck, and defeat the purpose of the cell. My idea has the acid gradually charged and released (during the charge cycle), with little power input at any given time. Should be no more than a small bulb worth (think turning signal), so not much at all. It's either a lot of power put in all at once, which could mean having some O2 accidentaly put into the cells, or small amounts over the charge cycle, no O2 leaked in (i'll think of a system to gently shake it off of the plates and gather and dispose of the O2. Any ideas?). Back later with more info

[Orange_Crusader]

I'll try to cram as much of the process in this as possible. This is basically a simple acid-metal reaction. The sulfuric acid eats both the Fe and Ca (not oxides) at the same time, producing only hydrogen. The water isn't split, so there's no O2 being released.

Once the acid is used up in eating away the metal, (the H2SO4 giving up its hydrogen), and the Fe and Ca are now FeSO4 and CaSO4 (which is a solid, non-soluble, and that's a problem for seperating the sulfate to reporduce acid). Since the FeSO4 is souble in water, it splits into SO4(2-), which isn't an acid without hydrogen being on it, and Fe2+, simply free iron ions floating around. Once the acid and metals are used up, nothng will be produced, since there's no acid to do that.

We can pull the sulfate ions and iron ions (using iron for simplicity) using a small amount of electricity, and using the ionic states (one has a negative charge, and the other a positive, so we can easily seperate them, those bonds aren't very strong, since it dissolves in water) to pull each one to its respective electrode. Yes, we can pull the Ca and Fe to opposite ends of their compartments, and the sulfates to the middle, in the bridge. I'll explain my idea soon for reforming the acid, it uses this idea of pulling them apart. There is a form of water filtration, where there are two plates, one on either side of a container, and a current is passed through them. The various ions on the water are pulled to the plates, leaving clean water between them, and the ions stuck to the plates until the current is turned off.

Hopefully, we won't have to use electricity to form the hydrogen (to bond to sulfates and form acid) all the time, just in cycles, when the acid is used up. An electric pH meter can keep track of when the acidity in the if neutral, or close to it, and turn on the current, and my idea for recharging it.

When it's done reacting, we'll pull the ions apart, and through a small, semi-isolaed eletrolysis unit, expose the sulfate to hydrogen and oxygen, but not the Ca or Fe. Explained below. The Ca and Fe stay as ions in their compartments, just sitting there stuck to their plates, with a small amount of electriciity holding them there.

Alright, here's the idea:

We needed a way to introduce hydrogen to the sulfate ions without exposing the Ca and Fe to oxygen (which would make water with the acid). The idea I have involves 2 membranes, one at either end of the bridge between the compartments. This leaves space between the membranes where the sulfate can go, but the metals can't (membrane, plus the small electrical current holding them down). In this space, we can have a small eletrolysis unit, with a small amount of electricity (no contant bubbling, just small bubbled forming on the plates) to react with the sulfate ions to make acid again. The newly made acid can then, as it's neutral, float down past the plates, or simply back through the membranes (if possible) and freely around the compartments to the Ca and Fe, in about equal amounts. The current is them turned off, the Ca and Fe are released from the plates, and start reacting en masse with the acid (hydrogen produced only). When that reaction is done, the current is turned on again and the ions drawn apart, and the acid regenrated with the small electrolysis unit. Very little power draw, a few volts at milliamps to simply keep the ions seperated and form tiny bubbles to react with the sulfates.

The plates that the Ca and Fe are drawn to are of only one polarity (yet to figure out how to make that work), or having them connected to the hydrogen producing plates in the middle (between the membranes, connected by wires). There would still be current gong between them, reaching across, but it would only be of one polarity, so no hydroxy production. These plates in the compartments (-ive) are connected to the -ive plates in the middle, but aren't near any +ive plates, so no production. Any Ca or Fe accidentally drawn to the middle will be stopped by the membranes, and simply be the first to react with the acid. No harm done, and still no oxygen contaminating the Fe or Ca. I'll make a drawing of this, since it's a bit confusing.

Agreed, having to inject H2 from another source would suck, and defeat the purpose of the cell. My idea has the acid gradually charged and released (during the charge cycle), with little power input at any given time. Should be no more than a small bulb worth (think turning signal), so not much at all. It's either a lot of power put in all at once, which could mean having some O2 accidentaly put into the cells, or small amounts over the charge cycle, no O2 leaked in (i'll think of a system to gently shake it off of the plates and gather and dispose of the O2. Any ideas?). Back later with more info

[owl]

Orange / Thrival,

I am struggling to understand the basic chemical reactions, and the above discussions are confusing me. Taking only the Ca side of things:

If we take distilled water (H2O), and add gypsum (CaSO4), nothing apparently happens, because CaSO4 isn't very soluble.

However, if we apply a voltage potential to this, we get the following electro-chemical reaction:
CaS04 + H2O + voltage ==> CaO + H2SO4

Now when the potential is released from the electrode, we get the following chemical reaction:
CaO + H2SO4 + voltage turned off ==> CaSO4 + H2 + O

Is this the basic chemical reaction for the Ca side?

Thanks,

[Orange_Crusader]

To put it shortly, I hope not. The H2 and O released when the acid is formed would make water, not gases (although, I wonder if there is a way to release them as gases, and not water. H+ and O(2+) could be pulled apart using electricity, as long as they don't form right away. Hmm...

We'd have just plain Ca metal reacting with the acid, if we can't keep the H2 and O2 from combining. Using the oxide means water, while just Ca means hydrogen.

Here's the basic reactions, using Fe, since it's soluble in water, and saves us the trouble. I'm not sure if electricity (at least not enough of it to produce water, we don't want that oxygen there) can split apart CaSO4, since it's solid. Maybe very slowly.

FeSO4 + H2O --> Fe(2+) + SO4(2-) It simply dissolves in the water into seperate ions

We add hydrogen to the fairly reactive SO4(2-) ions, using electrolysis (I wonder if the oxygen can bond with the sulfate as easily as the hydrogen...). This is shown as:

SO4(2-) + H2 --> H2SO4

Then we turn off the current, and the Fe ions and acid are free to mix, so we get H2 out of it:

Fe + H2SO4 --> H2 + FeSO4 (which loops back into the top equation, splitting up into ions again for recharging)

We collect the H2, apply current to seperate and add hydrogen to the sulfate again with electrolysis, and it starts over. This uses a small electrolysis unit, running at ~1V and milliamp levels, just enough to produce small bubbles on the plates, to add H2 in.

About the oxygen also produced by the small electrolysis unit: If we have the plates that the Ca and Fe are attracted to fairly low in the cell, and we allow the oxygen and any excess hydrogen formed from electrolysis (recharging the acid) to simply release and bubble to the top, away from the metals, or release it into the top, collected from just above the electrolysis unit, then we avoid any problems with making metal oxides and just water. Of course, if some of it does get contaminated by accident, then when the acid reacts with it, and makes water, it's just an Fe or Ca ion again, and the reaction with that one ion was wasted, but is ready to be recharged and used again. A system that "repairs" itself. Pretty cool. Of course, we'd like to waste as little as possible, so minimizing where and how the O2 can contact the metals is best to keeping maximum production. It's not so much to problem with the iron, since it oxidizes very slowly, but the calcium (if we can use it, seeing as it's practically unsoluble as CaSO4) is much more reactive, and if exposed to oxygen, would oxidize, making the dreaded metal oxides. I hope that makes some sense.

[thrival]

Hi Orange.

Just a few more comments since it's obvious we won't know exactly how
the cell performs until experiments are done. I'd like to see if it can
stand alone before adding bells, whistles, fixes or improvements. Crap,
I wish I had more time, money and space to do this.

If we start with unsaturated CaO and unsaturated iron, we can add H2SO4,
so we've added H2 to the system.

I always assumed that the H2 we make comes from either a chemical
reaction with the iron or an imposed electrical current. I guess I always
presumed that the H2SO4 won't get used up, or will at least be
regenerated when we recharge the cell. After all car batteries almost
never need more acid to be added, of course they don't off-gas much H2
or O so maybe a bad comparison.

While CaSO4 may be a solid, I know there are several chemical types.
For example joint compound in 5 gallon buckets is a paste and stays
mushy so long as it's kept wet, whereas hydrated gypsum/plaster-of-paris
sets up hard and stays relatively so, even when saturated (as when slip-
casting clay pots & ceramics.) If you break hard set gypsum up into
fragments and blend the chunks with water to milkshake consistency, it
doesn't get hard again. Of course if you drive out the H2/SO4 from it and
then let it react again, I don't know if it will harden again or not. There
seems to be a difference between air-hardened and chemically hardened
gypsum. The first is powdery, the latter very firm, holding defined shape
of its container, even though they still may be the same chemically.

[thrival]

...And you can't really stop oxygen from happening in the Ca, I mean
that's what electrolysis splitting of water is/does. Would have no bearing
if the electrodes were fully submereged or not; the electrode surfaces
are where the splitting action is.

[Orange_Crusader]

Partially why I'd like to use completely and fairly easily soluble chems with this.

With an oxide and acid, is essentially how a car battery works. Lead peroxide, plain lead, and acid. The acid reacting with the lead forms sulfates, and are split when current is applied (alternator). Sulfates are sent back into the mixture, reformed into acids, and coninue the cycle. The released H+ and OH- from the acid and lead form water. If they didn't it would off gas readily, which is what we want. A rechargable battery, where offgas is the key.

Yes, the acid will be regenerated as soon as we can apply a current to it, electrically splitting the water and reforming acid. If simply adding current, without adding hydrogen, will recharge the acid, then I'm very happy, that's one obstacle out of the way.

True, notes and theories on paper can't tell you exactly how it'll work in real life, we need more real and precise tests with this.

One odd experience that could be partially related to this: During one of my driving school appointments, I noticed an odd sulfur-like smell coming from the engine bay. We (instructor and I) opened the hood up, and I noticed the battery had 2 small holes in the top, obviously for offgassing. The alternator had quit on the car, and was draining the battery to power everything without charging it. It was offgassing quite readily, I would put it at 2+, maybe up to 5LPM of offgassing when the gas was pressed down (and load applied to the battery). Needless to say, the battery needed replacing as well as the alternator. And that's with a lead-acid cell, which tends to react slower than what we're planning to use, and isn't set up ideally to offgas. Battery link, explains how it works well. If it can't be charged, the excess acid eats away the lead, making H2)

Using a semi-isolated electrolysis unit (membranes keeping it away from the metals and a system to duct the excess H2 and O2 away from the metals on the plates), we can keep O2 from contacting the metals, while maintaing a current through the membranes. It'll just take a bit of work, that's all. The hydroxy-producing electrodes (there would be two -ive electrodes placed in the compartments to gather and keep the metal ions under control while charging) will be far enough away from the metals to prevent O2 contamination.

If we do happen to have metal oxides (CaO, mainly) formed by just applying current, then that side will make water, and the iron side, which is less reactive and oxidizes slower, will make H2. The electrolysis unit will be placed in the bridge between the 2 compartments, with a membrane on either side, keeping the metals away from the O2. I'll start on a crude drawing of it soon

[thrival]

Orange:

If we can keep the O away from the metals, that would be awesome.
AlaskaStar said large electrode surface area in contact with the metal(s)
was the key, and large currents. I'm having a hard time picturing what
you're describing so yes, even a crude sketch would be helpful/good.

[thrival]

Orange:

I've read your post several times, think I get it now.

How about 3 PVC containments joined by bridges, shaped like an 'm'

The left post contains Ca and a single scroll electrode, the right post Fe
and a single scroll electrode, and the central post (no chemicals, just SO4)
and twin scroll electrodes like Ant Davison's kettle. Membranes at both
ends. We run high frequency DC to the center post electrodes, just enough
to regenerate the acid like you said (and vibrate off the bubbles. We can
have a vent in the central post to offgas any O that forms.) In fact no
reason why we can't be doing this all the time, right? The other two
containers are belching away hydrogen, There's a voltage difference
between them so we still get electricity while the H2 is being made 24/7!
At least that's what it looks like to me. I like it a lot. You did it!

[Orange_Crusader]

Hmm.... large currents at low voltages would certainly make the acid regeneration very, very fast.

The recharging process is still up in the air a bit here. I'll ask if the O2 and H2 (oxide and acid) can be kept apart in any way to prevent water from being made, and simply getting H2 and O2 (same ratio as electrolysis) from the cell. I'd prefer an H2-only cell, but if it works, almost anything will do (short of an oxygen only cell).

Sorry, no time for the sketch right now, but it's a project for tomorrow, possibly at lunch. Go MS Paint!

Large contact with the metal would have a better effect at drawing them in and keeping a lot of surface area to react with the acid, but I'm sure I'm missing something here. Has anyone bothered to contact AlaskaStar and get some more information about this? I recall that he left some contact information when he left. Could be helpful, if this cell is like the ones he has apparently running his car.

[Orange_Crusader]

Bingo, that's my idea, pure and simple. The SO4 ions should be able to freely circulate through the cell, and the H2/O2 production of the middle coil should be enough to push them around. We can put membranes, por pissibly just one, at the top of the middle post, or at the tops of the other two.

I'm surprised you got it so well, my descriptions were confusing at best. A small amount of energy input constantly regenerating acid is doable, I think. I like this ideas as well, it's simple and effective, or at least should be. And jeez, this thread grows faster than a cage of rabbits.

[thrival]

Orange:

Sorry I didn't get your email. Could you post it again? I want to
send you a pic.

thrival at graffiti dot net