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OUPower.com • View topic - Low energy Input, mass hydrogen output methods in use.

Low energy Input, mass hydrogen output methods in use.

This forum is for discussions regarding Hydrogen Production by all means OTHER than Electrolysis. It is also for discussing the end results of Hydrogen Applications such as Water Engines & Water Cars.

Humid Days = Performance

Postby Bamboo » Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:51 am

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Postby Orange_Crusader » Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:23 pm

I really think the hydride method has promise, but it'll be a bit heavy compared to a gas storage system, but it stores a lot more hydrogen in a smaller space.

Sorry if it was a bit vague, but my idea goes like so:

The tanks are charged, by the on-board system, and/or by a home (or possible future gas-station) based H2 generator, giving you a range of about 350 miles, or 560km, on 5 tanks. While driving, the on-board system generates hydrogen, recharging the tanks (or recharging one or two, while the others supply to the engine) as you drive, using the H2 chem cell plan. When the car is stopped (anywhere, a rest stop, gas station, hotel, restaurant, home, etc.), the on-board system continues to refill the metal hydride tanks until they are full. The system, to what should be a high degree, generates its own electricity, and continiuing the reaction. The battery is recharged by one cell (active) as it charges the other (inactive cell). My recharging system also aids in recharging the battery, using the heat generated by the cell's reaction while producing hydroxy, although my system is slightly more efficient while the car is moving. When the tanks are completely full, the cells' connection to the battery are disconnected, and, being incapable of recharging with no battery connection, the cells stop producing H2. Any H2 produced after it is shut off (probably will be a small amount some times) can be stored in a small overflow tank, or other spot, since it shouldn't be able to hang in limbo in the tubes and in the tank (fire and explosion (not really, just a very fast burning) hazard).

When you start the car again (after tanks are fully charged), you'll have a range of 350 miles again, plus the constant refilling from the cells. We won't even have to supply half the car's hydrogen need (if we do, that's 1.5x range on tanks alone, or 525 miles (840km), but the higher production we can get, the better.

True, water injection would give us a boost in mileage. The water could be cooled in a pipe in front of the radiator before being misted into the intake, to make it as dense as possible, and able to absorb more heat from the incoming air, and allowing us to turn down the amount of water injection a bit, since a denser unit of water can expand to more steam than a warm, equal unit of water. The ideal temperature for water is 4oC, and we should be able to reach close to that, at highway speed.

An obvious bit is that the cells continuing to run after the car is turned off would deplete the water in the tanks, and the water level in the car. It's only converted into more useful hydrogen, not gone, but you could top it off before you leave, if you like.

Having gas (really gas, not liquid :P ) stations with hydrogen to refill the tanks, and water (already availbable, but I mean at an actual pump station, not bottles) to top off the cells (or if we add a water tank to keep the cells at a decent level, but that would add a lot of weight) would be ideal, but that's not coming very soon.

This system has the possibility of adding some weight and taking up space in the car, so we'll need to keep the size of the cells and tanks under control. Having 2-4 cells (which need not be very big) stacked, and tucked away, with the tanks similarly either positioned in odd spots (in place of part of the old gas tank wouldn't be too bad, maybe we can even use the old tank to store the hydride, as long as that much hydride doesn't weight too much, or break something). Possibly, the tanks could be made in a rectangular or box shape, making them easier to stack and store, but that would bring up a few small problems of ditributing the hydrogen in the tank to bond to the hydride (easily solved), getting the H2 out efficiently and completely (not stagnant parts), and heating the tanks evenly to release the H2 (also semi-easily solved).

But to the easier parts right now...

I think having both chems remain in solutuion (not precipitated) would be ideal, since it would keep all of the chems exposed, in easy contact with the electrodes for a faster, more efficent and simpler recharging. Having a properly polarized plate (or set of plates) on the bottom to take care of the precipitated chemicals.

Or we can substitute the chemical that precipitates with another that won't and still has a similar volatge created, but that shouldn't be neccesary if we can design it properly. If the precipitated compound can't be reached, then we can't (or can barely) recharge the cell. We'll need corrugated plates (thrival's drawing, more surface area) fairly close together, and touching the bottom of the tank, to reach as much of the preciptate as possible. Any ideas about this? :)
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Postby thrival » Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:00 pm

OrangeCrusader:

I like the hydride storage idea but know nothing about it.
It's a good place to store H2 still off-gassing when you
turn the car off. My suggestion is to keep the system as
simple as possible.

One modification I saw with S1R9's set up is running exhaust
water vapor back into the tank it came from (which is cold
and tends to act as a condensor.) It's conceivable to make
the cooling system part of the fuel system; as long as we
recover the exhaust, we should never run low.
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Postby Orange_Crusader » Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:37 pm

Correction: four, not five of the tanks are needed for a range of about 350 miles.

It's United Nuclear's idea (I'm sure we can adapt it, or arrange for them to let us build such tanks without being sued, or charged, if they're patented and/or copyrighted.

More info here: http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm

It's a simple process, as explained on the site. The metal hydride absorbs hydrogen, and releases it when heated (electronically or otherwise).

I agree, thrival. Start simple until everything is working perfectly, then expand. First thing first, let's have someone build one of these cells so we can verify that it works and recharges as expected, and noting hydrogen production, at which voltatge, amperage, etc. are produced by the cell. Also try running it continuously, and see by how much the vitals (hydroxy production, volatage, etc.) drop by. We can go on from there, but first we need some concrete results. Everything else (storage, recharging systems (mine inculded), etc.) can be left until later, since they're not key to the cell working, but can boost it, or keep the supply constant. :)
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Postby thrival » Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:50 pm

Last I heard, AntDavison was working on the cell. My budget is
tight and I really need to find a practical watercar system.
My gasoline bubbler is offline (need to track down a major
vacuum leak.)
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Hydrogen from Water

Postby Tony » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:07 am

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Postby Tony » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:39 am

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S1R9's watercar, with Hydrogen on demand may be the answer

Postby knute1945 » Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:57 pm

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Postby thrival » Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:09 pm

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Postby clone477 » Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:15 am

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Postby Ronald_raygun » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:29 pm

Hello Clone, as far as I know, AntDavidson is working on such a cell. I spoke with my chemistry teacher about this and the only problem i really have is finding a good gcontainer to hold the sulfuric acid. Mind I'm just a kid so the local companies here are hesistant to let me buy stuff from them.
If you give a man some fire, he will be warm for just a day.

If you set a man on fire he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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Postby Orange_Crusader » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:59 pm

I'll introduce the idea to my chemicatry teacher, and see what he thinks. Lucky for me/us, he's very open to alternate energy (hydrogen in particular) ideas and projects. He's planning to make a hydrogen fuel cell (H2 to electricity), using school funds, sometime this year, and is interested in Chemalloy, and would like to do some tests and see it for himself, once I get some bars.

I have the same problem...

I'm only 17, so when I'm buying anything except chips, pop, etc. people tend to look at me funny. It'll be a challenge getting sulfuric acid for this (I'll ask the science teacher, the school has a supply of 12 mol/L H2SO4), and maybe a bit of trouble even with the quicklime, although the rust will be easy enough.

AntDavidson, any progress on your acid-metal cell?

A container is a bit of a problem.... Glass works well, but tends to be breakable is subjected to stress (like in a car, bumps, potholes, etc.). A stainless steel box could work. It's a bit expensive, but more practical, and we can use it as one of the electrodes. It's also weld-able. It, however, makes the design more complicated. We can introduce it in working, car versions, but I'll leave it out of any that I build, for price reasons (and labour), and simplicity. :)
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Postby kww » Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:46 pm

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Postby thrival » Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:50 pm

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Postby owl » Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:32 am

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