Low energy Input, mass hydrogen output methods in use.

[mc19]

"both of these have a "saturation" point like sugar or salt in water.
both of these have a polarity. look at the Valence charts.


mix apropriate amounts of each (Preferrably EQUAL for starters) in water.
now there are 2 ways to do this:
1. put your electrodes in, and put DC power to it, and get hydrogen and Oxygen, and in the same due process make sulfuric acid, AND electroplate your electrodes, in which you now have an Edison cell that when topped off with water, makes 1.0 volts. draw the power off and watch hydrogen and oxygen come off the top.

2. use magnetics. i am aware that Zinc and Copper are NOT magnetic. study quantum physics and you will find out differently. think of it like a HOLLOW CORE transformer. in a hollow core transformer, copper wire wrapped around a hollow core with X number of wraps, then another wire (SEPARATED) wrapped around that with a different number of wraps. this TRANSFORMER uses MAGNETIC POWER to INDUCE a current from one winding to the next. keep in mind that neither copper or zinc are magnetic in everyday use. this doesn't imply that they will not generate power in the presence of a magnetic field. so wrap your container of water+ CuSO4 + ZNSO4 with wire to be used as a magnetic field when energized. remember that you no longer have electrodes directly touching the chemicals inside the container. that is what the CuSO4 and the ZnSO4 is used for. your electrodes are thoroughly mixed inside the container. since the container was hopefully made of something NON-metallic, there is no chance of electroplating. cycle the power to the magnetic field coils on and off in rapid sucession like a frequency, this will induce a HIGH VOLTAGE SPIKE amongst the metals INSIDE the container.
look at how the high voltage automobile ignition coil works- as the primaries are energized, it becomes nothing more than a magnet-when the primaries are DE-ENERGIZED, the "invisible" Magnetic "explosion" of the field that has destabilizedis absorbed into the secondary windings and you have a higher voltage that is capable of jumping the gap of the spark plug to ignite the fuel mixture.
if the same principle of destabilizing magnetic fields are used to induce voltage inside the container....AND using the FREQUENCY OF not using as a radio emitter, but putting the on/off frequencies of the field coils around the containeron the same FREQUENCY of a microwave....then what do you have?" (Alaskastar 2005)

Alaskastar 2005, Provoking throught to provoke discovery,viewed 1 september 2005, http://oupower.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php ... highlight=

[thrival]

See the H2SO4_cell under my project name. I'm 90% sure
you won't need a membrane. Haven't done it myself yet.

The sulfates don't build up on your electrodes, they chelate
(bind with) the chemicals. Gypsum/iron sulfate will give you
a lot more hydrogen than zinc/copper. In fact you need a
potential difference over 2V to make H2 at all. Once it
falls to approx. 2V, your H2 production will cease (according
to literature quoted by AntDavison.)

I wouldn't use pulsed electricity. Every time you charge the
cell, your H2 production must stop, and then start again.
Pulses will retard your H2 output by at least half. I would use
two cells, one charging and one discharging. The discharging
cell I would run through a symetrical sine-wave oscillator,
transformer, stepping up the voltage to charge a battery.
When the V in the discharging cell falls too low, should
trigger a logic gate/switch to alternate cells.

I believe AlaskaStar was describing more than one method
of making H2. I could be wrong and you are of course free
to experiment but don't be surprised if it happens the way I
said. Prove me wrong and I'll learn something new.

[mc19]

I’m having trouble creating the sulphates. I can create the iron sulphate quite easily by corroding low carbon steel in sulphric acid by electrolysis (where green crystals form). But creating the calcium sulphate has proved to be quite difficult as calcium hydroxide and sulphric acid are insoluble. They have result in what looks like clumps of white calcium. Maybe this is calcium sulphate.

[thrival]

mc19:

Calcium sulfate is GYPSUM, plaster of paris, joint-compound, drywall,
what-have-you. The material sets up hard in about 20 minutes after
you hydrate it. The difference between it and joint compound is the
JC is the hard product (appearances not-withstanding) that has been
pulverized and mixed with additional water to a smooth, viscous paste.
As the water evaporates, it gets hard

When you add even more water, you'll have thick soup. Even more
water and you'll have runny soup. The water will of course volatilize
off as hydrogen gas, meaning your chemicals will get thicker the more
water they lose. You may want to use a float valve or siphon to keep
the water at a predetermined level.

[xvr80]

This is what happens. What I'm not sure of is enthalpy changes

2CaO + H2SO4 < = > CaSO4 + 2H2
2FeO + H2SO4 < = > FeSO4 +2H2

When electricity and Water (being replenished) are added this happens

CaSO4 + H2O => CaO + H2SO4
FeSO4 + H2O => FeO + H2SO4

Current shuts off and first two reactions occur

What I'm not sure of is transfering the heat created by this reaction to charge a battery

And do you need a bubbler for this?

Thanks I'm looking to set this up for my car hopefully.

[mc19]

Have you tried plaster of paris mixed with water yet. I found that know matter how much water is added the ingredients sets at the bottom of the container. I have also found that plaster of paris only contains approximately 60% Cas04 (calcium sulphate) and hence the reason for trying to creating this out of sulphric acid.

[mc19]

Have you experimented with sulphric acid as an electrolyte? Should try it with a couple of nails (or screws) and see the rate at which the gas is produced. The electricity acts as a catylyst in corroding the anode. Once the maximum rate of corrosion is reached and the current is removed it takes quite a while for the corrosion process to slow down. Quite amazing.

[thrival]

mc19

Well you guys are doing the experiments and are
a little ahead of me here. But I have worked
with gypsum (making molds) and here's what
you'll notice: After the gypsum has set up into
a block, crack it up into itty bits. Powderize that.
Add water. You'll see it doesn't set up again.
The chemical energy in the setting process has
been all used up. It's closer to joint compound
now, and will only harden upon evaporation of
most of the water.

There are different grades of gypsum. US Gypsum
sells them all and are a good resource to learn
more. I've spoken with them by phone re: mold-
making and castings, the techs are very helpful.

If the gypsum product I was using didn't have
enough acid, I'd add more acid, and/or oxides
and blend it all up with a power drill/paint stirrer
(a couple pieces of short chain bolted onto the
end of threaded rod works great.)

[thrival]

...forgot to mention,

If your calcium hydroxide is "insoluble"
with sulfuric acid, try diluting the acid.
I found pure acid to be a very dead
thing, at least when added to CaCO2,
but add 50% or more water and things
really liven up.

[Orange_Crusader]

The two container idea seems to be the best, I think. Far less complicated (just 2 cells, and wiring, basically), and easier to build.

Ok.. let me just clear this up, as I see several people are wondering about it.

There is no energy (electrical) created when the metals are eaten away, but it does make a lot of heat energy. I'll bring that up in a second. The energy we're collecting is from the Ca and Fe electrodes, as a battery (Edison cell). The two metals create a voltage potential of about 1 volt when immersed in acid. I think the voltage drops as the metal is eaten away, eventually stopping when all of the metal is gone. I'll ask around and look up the strenghts of the sulfate bonds (the precipitating one, at least) to see how much (percentage) of the products we can regenerate.

About the heat energy, it's usable, but not with our current design. You can easily use it other ways (use your imagination. I have a design thought of, but I'd like to keep it under my hat for now. Rest assured it has the potential to make tons of electricity, far more than we should need to renegerate the chems, and it's very simply, albeit unorthodox. Still need to hammer out the details, though, but the end result could be a alternator spinning at ~50k RPM's (or more, if geared, since the design will supply plenty of torque as well). I don't want to give away much more, but if anyone wants to chat, my MSN is in my profile. It's link-able with this project, and uses the high heat energy we so far don't use at all, so there are no losses except 10 or so kilos of weight being added on, if that.

Back to this project:

mc19, the gas production sustaining itself after current is removed seems (to me) a good case for pulsing the energy into the container as needed to sustain a decent rate of gas production, and otherwise stored in a battery or properly tuned capacitator.

The 1V difference created seems to be able to sustain the reactions for a while (I hope it's a long while) with little gas production drop. If we were to collect this 1V of electricity, the reaction will not be able to continue nearly as long, but should still work (I think my electricity generating method could help with that, as long as the heat production is constant and decently high (anywhere above room temp, which is easy to do).

Mixing the universal solvent with an acid gives you nearly unbeatable solvent, unless you had a 33% water, acid and methanol or acetone mix.

Thrival, how would pulsed electricty cut H2 production? It's simply meshing the charge/discharge cycles into a constant on/off one. H2 production would seem lower, but there would be no down time, so production should remain approximately the same, I think. You said so yourself (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) some pages back. The sulfate remains in solution (for 3/4 of the time, I believe, when the metals are electroplated, and when reacted, it only precipitates for one compound (I named it previously, but don't recall it right now). We have a small bug to fix of how to get the precipitated sulfate compound to efficiently seperate and re-charge the cell, and ideas?

[thrival]

OrangeCrusader:

First I want to be sure we're not mixing up apples and oranges.
You guys were talking about zinc & copper and pulsed electricity.
I'll leave that for later.

As for calcium & iron sulfates, here's what I see happening.
If you started with oxides and add acid-water, initially you'll
make lots of H2. Then that reaction will fall off. Your stainless
steel plates should be largest surface area possible to be in
contact with the greatest amount of chemicals as possible.
Now you connect a battery to the terminals and charge the
H2SO4 cell. You will be driving one side to metal and the other
to oxide. I would opt in the direction of iron metal and calcium
oxide but you could just as well charge the other way, pure
calcium metal and iron oxide (rust.)

OK, the cell is charged. Disconnect the battery. You're now
making lots of H2 as the acidulated water attacks the metal
on one side and oxide on the other. Now personally I believe
and AlaskaStar more or less corroborated altho I don't want
to dig through previous posts, that while H2 and O are
being generated (you can't split water without making both),
you are also generating substantial current. Remember,
this charged calcium-iron cell is also a battery. AlaskaStar
said in fact you will generate H2 faster the more electricity you
draw off. That makes sense because greater electric flow across
the wire will mean greater ionic flow through the U-tube. Since
both chemicals are approx. 2.5V either way of the zero line,
your cell should produce about 5V.

The fastest way to draw off electricity is a direct short, but that's
wasteful, so i recommend an oscillator/transformer to convert
DC to AC, step up via secondary windings, rectify, and charge
a 12V battery (like the one in your car.) Now you've recovered
all the electricity you used to charge the cell. When the cell V
falls below 2V, switch back to charge mode and engage your
back-up cell, for continuous production of H2.

Now I'm still referring to the calcium-iron cell. I believe pulsing
electricity into the cell isn't very efficient. First, if you're charging
a cell, direct current is always faster and more effective altho
I could be wrong and open to correction here. Second, every
pulse you put into the cell stops H2 production for the duration
of the pulse. H2 production happens when acid attacks the metal,
not during the recharge cycle. So if you try to put both events
too close together, like a 50% duty cycle, your H2 production
will be cut in half. Less than 50% and you'll be failing to recharge
fully, and more than 50% and you're diminishing your H2
production. That just stands to reason.

Now getting to copper and zinc, by all means throw some zinc
coated BB's in a plastic container, wrap a copper coil around the
latter and zap it with microwave frequencies. You could make H2.
On the other hand I'm not convinced that microwave energies are
the most efficient to use. Microwaves are a frequency proven to
heat water. Puharic was using lower frequencies with little
appreciable heat at all. One thing we know is that magnetism/EM
waves do help to cleave the H2O bond. Imagine stretching H2-O
on a cutting board (between 2 capacitive plates) and then cutting
the bond H2-|-O with an EM knife. Again I say this method is a
different method than the Ca-Fe cell discussed. Anyway,
have at it.

[Orange_Crusader]

Now this is getting me mixed up a bit...

I was referring to the iron-calcium sulfate cell, not the zinc-copper one.

For the reaction, I believe xvr80 had it right (look up, but add O2 to the product side, it has to go somewhere).

This is really, a rechargable battery in which excess off-gas is our goal. If you hook up 2 such batteries, one to charge the other, will it work? I'm seeing this as a alternating, and slowly falling, cascading reaction. One cell (cell 1) produces H2 and electricity, and charges the other cell (cell 2), which, once the 2V output is reached by cell 1 and the electricity cut off from cell 1, and starts producing H2 (acid-metal reaction) and electricity, which is routed to cell 1 to recharge it. Seeing losses from having to drag sulfate molecules to the plates to fully recharge a cell (also why brute-force electrolysis is comparably inefficient, bumping molecules), and splitting the bonds of the precipitated CaSO4 (partial problem there, geting the CaSO4 molecules to the plates as a solid. The iron sulfate molecules are soluble, so no problem there. Having a plate on the bottom could help, though.

Sorry if this seems a bit thick-headed, but...

Fe and Ca are both 2+, in the oxidation forms we're working with. Sulfates are 2-. This would have the sulfates attracted to the neg. electrode and the metals to the pos. one, according to my relatively small knowledge of this particular topic. Please clear this up for me, it should be one of the simplest parts, but it doesn't register.

[thrival]

OrangeCrusader:

Well technically we're not using once cell to recharge the other
altho you could. There would be an eventual slow diminishment
via electrical losses, but the extra, free energy is in the H2 we
produced.

I would use the H2, electricity-producing cell to charge a car
battery. I would step up the DC voltage from the cell by first
oscillating it, stepping up via transformer, rectifying, and
charging the car battery. OK, we extracted all the electricity and
hydrogen we could. Now our cell is discharged. But while this
was happening, we were charging another cell from the car
battery/alternator system. Don't forget we're burning H2 in
our ICE as we tool on down the road and that engine turns
an alternator that keeps our car battery topped off with
power. So recharging a cell is no problem, especially when it
gives all the electricity we put into it right back.

Now it takes time to charge and discharge. Accept the fact that
half the time the cell will be charging and therefore offline for
practical use. That's when you want a fully charged cell to kick
in as replacement.


Of course you can put pulses in and hope to get H2 between the
pulses. That might work and you might get away using only one
cell, but your practical output will be an amount equal to the
time offgassing and the time charging. Let's take an amount of
time, say one second, one minute, one hour, whatever. Your total
amount of H2 output will be half of your increment because the
other half increment is recharging (downtime). So makes no
difference whether you pulse or not. Your total output will only
be half what you want unless you use two cells. Of course one
cell big enough could work too. I guess I just like to keep things
as simple as possible because simplicity is always easier to fix
when sh!t hits the fan.

[thrival]

forgot to mention...

Linus Pauling's General Chemistry showed a bar graph of
some common elements and their energy potentials. Ca is over
+2.5 and F is over -2.5 ;Wendell Latimer in his Oxidation
Potentials lists the energy of Ca as +2.87.

I don't know how those potentials change when you add acid, if
they increase or decrease. I do know Linnard Griffin's videos
show sulfuric acid attacking iron, making lots of hydrogen.
Ultimately the exact voltages shouldn't matter as long as we get
back what we put in, with H2 to burn.[/u]

[eco]

reply,replay,replay Over 150.Nothing conrete. Did anyone produce even a small amount of hydrogen with this super chemical method?