Hydroxy and Diesels

[Bluey]

Hello Folks,
I decided to start this thread because of the many similarities between Diesels and what we are trying to achieve with Hydroxy. Some of us are not too sure which way we are going and the more info we have as signposts the easier it is to get there. I believe that the diesel engine is a good solid platform on which to start.
If a 400hp diesel gets an improvement of 10% and a 100hp petrol engine improves 25% with the same amount of hydroxy then obviously the diesel is responding better.
To start. Some of Rudolf Diesel's early engines were built to run on coal dust as there were mountains of the stuff in the Ruhr. I would compare this to the hydrogen experiments done in schools. They were next to useless. But then Rudy found that oil was a better fuel and built a primitive engine along these lines. I compare these with Bob's "Boiling Behemoths". (I have a very healthy respect for Bobs opinions and designs.)
They stayed like this with minor improvements until Robert Bosch designed the helix controlled fuel pumps,(just going out of production after 80 yrs) and high pressure injectors and it ballooned from there. Maybe this is similar to the Serial type cells that Bob promotes, and we still have a way to go.
I understand that a major aircraft factory displays a sign,"According to all the principals of modern Aerodynamics a bumble bee cannot fly. They forgot to tell the bee this and he flies anyway." NOTHING should be indiscriminantly written off as the impossible.

Most people think that a diesel gets it's ignition from just high compression and fuel. WRONG. Larger engines have a comp ratio of around 16 to 18 to one. Smaller engines go to say 22 to one, some higher. But if these engines were made with flat top pistons and no combustion chamber I doubt you would get a sound. The secret lies in the combustion chamber either built into the cyl. head or the top of the piston or both. These create Natures VORTEX. Leyland Motors had a 100hp engine. They improved the vortexing airflow through the manifold and head design and had 110hp. The vortex causes friction between air particals which generates enough heat to ignite the fuel. Diesels rely a great deal on timing and flamespread and this is where HYDROXY can come to the fore.

Timing is critical and can be contradictory. If a direct injection diesel is hard to start a slight retard will often improve starting. If indirect injection slight advance may improve it. (This is built into the fuelpump and static timing should not be altered.)That is rule of thumb.
It also takes into account rate of injection and flamespread. On full load a direct injection engine has timing ABOUT 28 deg BTBC and ends about TDC. We had a client with a fleet of 15 European trucks. He was advised to alter the Pump Phasing to shorten the injection period, this started flamespread earlier and faster and gave a extra few degrees at max pressure on the piston. We modified one Pump and set of injectors for him to try. Static timing remained the same at 28deg but end of injection advanced about 5deg. The truck went Qland to Melbourne return and the drivers remarks,"She was half a gear better on the hills and saved 200 litres of fuel". He changed the others with similar results. I see no reason why Hydroxy would not achieve the same results. Many later engines are computer controlled so that they take many of these factors into account but I am not familiar with them.
I was at first mystified by some reports, and advertisements, about trucks using Hydroxy. They could not have been getting more than 2 or 3 Litres a min yet they were talking of 40 extra hp and 20% saving on fuel. Then I realised from the above that the Hydroxy was apparently speeding flamespread and making more efficient use of the fuel energy otherwise going up the spout.
A major company in Australia was selling kits 20 years ago that worked on a pyrometer adding LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gas) to the inlet manifold when the exhaust temp asked for it. They called it a "Torque Topper". It was very effective. However most of the engines it was fitted to were not designed with the strength to take even Turbos etc and many failed. It was taken off the market.
I apologise for the long post but could see no way of shortening it.
Regards
Blue

[AlaskaStar]

Bluey:

My wife and I one day disassembled the injectors from my Diesel truck (all 8 of them). we measured them with micrometers, dimensioned them out in drawings on paper, and proceeded to clean and modify each of them.

The results:

Pop Pressure:
Before: 1450-1500 PSI
After: 4800-5300 PSI

Pintle Travel (total movement):
Before: 0.032 Inches
After: 0.012 Inches

Fuel Consumption:
Before: 20 Gallons=200 Miles
After: 20 Gallons=350 Miles

Power (not dyno tested):
Before: 0 MPH to 65 MPH=43 seconds
After: 0 MPH to 65 MPH=19 seconds

Ease of Starting:
Before: Hard Starting
After: Easy Starting

Idle:
Before: Smooth, regular "Diesel Roll" sound.
After: High Pitched "Cracking" Sound.

Quality of Idle:
Before: Smooth, almost vibrationless.
After: Engine steadily, rythmically and violently rocked side to side in compartment. **

** Note, this steady violent vibration loosened ALL bolts on starter, transmission, shocks, door hinges, hood mounts, fenders, tank straps, and other things I am still finding.

I believe the results of higher opening pressures, as well as better atomization of fuel off the tips of the injectors was the cause of the more power, and better efficiency. the undesired side effects resulted in my reversing the modifications to keep the vehicle from disassembling itself while driving via vibrations.

AlaskaStar

[Bluey]

Hi Alaskastar,
Without engine model I will just generalise. To increase breaking pressure by 300% has the same effect as advancing the timing several degrees,hence the many noises. As they were just over 100 Bar I suspect it is indirect injection. You have me tossed as to how you could reduce needle lift without some rather fancy grinding & lapping gear, unless they were Roosamaster which are adjustable.
If you want specs I can probably supply fairly quickly. I no longer have my own business but work part time for a friend. Have fun but I do suggest staying with the original spec. I dont blame any engine for being hard to start up there.
Kind Regards Blue

[AlaskaStar]

Engine: 7.3 I.D.I. International Navistar.

Naturally Aspirated, Originally came with a Roosamaster Rotary Injection Pump, but now has a Stanadyne Pump, which from what I understand, Stanadyne BOUGHT Roosamaster, but I could be wrong on that.

The truck is also equipped with a Nippendenso OSGR 2.5KW Starter (MAX DRAW UNDER LOAD is 2.5 KW, or 12 volts 200 Amps, far cry better than that Mitsubishi OSGR P.O.S. that would draw 390 AMPS with NO ENGINE on the Growler!)

I also have 2 Group 65, 1000CCA Batteries, NO BLOCK HEATER, and 8 modified CH472 (could be CH471) Champion 170 Watt Glow Plugs.

Stock Equipment Information:
RoosaMaster Rotary Injection Pump, 55 Watt (Autolite #1108) Glow Plugs, Mitsubishi OSGR Starter, and 110 Amp Motorcraft Alternator, with 2 group 65 Batteries, and OO Cables for both (+) and (-).

I have installed the following:
Stanadyne Rotary Injection pump. (would love to have a Bosch unit!)

170 Watt Champion Glow plugs (modified)

Nippendenso OSGR 2.5 KW Starter

150 Amp Alternator (Ambulance Package Alternator +Regulator)

Modified Injectors (now with a 1500 PSI Max POP Pressure)

Electric Fuel Pump (self priming)

#000 Battery Cables for BOTH (+) and (-).

Removed Stump pulling Ring and Pinion, Installed a set of 3.08 R&P Gears for the Differential/ 3rd member.


That's what I have done so far, and plan to install a ZF45 5 Speed, and remove the C6. Also plan to add Dual Wheels (It's a flatbed). Also on the slow wish list is PowerTrax Locker Differential units.

Other than that, the engine is stock internally. model year 1988. Ford F350 2x4, Quad-Cab (4-door), Commercial Stripped Chassis, with the XLT Lariat Package with running boards and power everything (Including A/C!).

Hope that's enough Information.....maybe gives too much?

And for those whom work at NAPA locally, yes it's green with brown 2 tone paint scheme. (inside joke)

AlaskaStar

[AlaskaStar]

On reducing the needle lift, I carefully ground (with valve grinder [SOUX]) the Stop-plate, upon which stops the upward movement of the pintle. there is a shoulder drop that I removed to give proper clearances. to make a machine finish, I used first 600 Grit, then 800, then 1200 then 2400 grit and finally with 3600 grit polishing was able to achieve a perfectly flat perfectly smooth polished fit to prevent side-spray between the pintle holder and the the stop-plate. my machine fit looked better and fit tighter than the factory unit or even the NEW Delphi injectors I have purchased (Spares).

I spent a total of maybe 12-14 hours doing all of these at one time. this led to a great many different discoveries, more not desirable than the desirable.

*to get those grit #'s of paper, go to someone whom custom makes telescope lenses. there's a bunch of those guys up here that make custom telescope lenses (BIG ONES!!!).


AlaskaStar

[ElectroGasMan]

I had a friend stop by and he runs a diesel truck and knows I am learning about HYDROXY, wonders what the max amount of gas his truck could take without getting that rattle in it. I wasn't sure and have never heard of anyone running on on high%%% gas. Booster info is over %5. I know when I use alittle LPG (liquid propane gas) my diesel rattled like a trash heap. So you know what I am thinking.

I am not sure what to tell the man about the %% ? Anyone? I think Bob answered this once but there has been so little spoken about this other than it being thrown in with the gas engine info, makes it more fun to find.

Thanks Group

Michael

[AlaskaStar]

Micheal:

On the CNG/LNG (Natural Gas) the way to run a diesel on this is to leave the injection pump AT IDLE. then, vary the N.G. (Natural Gas) input. Natural gas will not ignite under the temps and pressure generated by a diesel engine (naturally aspirated, Natural gas admitted to intake air stream).

So...the Diesel Fuel MUST still be used, but only now in terms of being the "pilot light" for the NG fuel. Same can be and has been done with Hydroxy gas.

Propane on the other hand will ignite PRIOR to the piston actually reaching TDC of compression (almost 35 degrees) and will typically blast holes into the tops of your pistons. Special pistons, and heads/ head gaskets (copper gaskets) must be used an this process is ungodly expensive.

LNG-Direct Inject: this is a special injection system that injects LIQUID NATURAL GAS into the cylinder just like diesel fuel, and this DOES ignite and burn like diesel, just without all the soot.

LPG-Direct Inject: SAME AS LNG DIRECT INJECT.


I hope that this answers a bunch of questions.

Oh! and a Diesel engine runs a bit different than the Gas Jobs, as the air remains constant, and the only variance is the fuel. to make the engine run faster, add more fuel, to make it run slower, don't pour so much in.

Hydrogen Fuel in a Spark Ignition engine is typically controlled in the same manner. To increase Torque and RPM, add more fuel to the intake air, to slow it down, don't put so much in. The reason Hydrogen cannot easily be used in a diesel engine is the fact that Hydrogen will NOT ignite under heat, nor pressure. You can heat hydrogen and bring it up way past 20,000 PSI, and it will NOT ignite. You MUST have a SPARK, FLAME, or GLOWING EMBER (like charcoal combustion) to ignite the hydrogen fuel.

High compression engines such as a diesel would do great, IF it has a SPARK ignition system for the Hydrogen Fuel. This is ungodly expensive to install, not just the machine-work to the head,s but the fabrication of the ignition system as well.

Keep Warm!

AlaskaStar

[MarkinAustralia]

I am not in the same league as bluey or Alaska...please note that.
However I am flying back to the states for three weeks of 16 hour workdays with a dyno and gas emission testers.
The company I will be working with modifies injectors for power and economy as well as electronic plug ins that produces around 30% more power, with a clean burn, by changing the the way the fuel is injected.
Why I am there we will test
1. Before and after turbo performance of hydroxy gas induction
2. The optimum volumes of hydroxy according to engine speed and capacity(to much and your pissing against the wall as you are wasting energy substituting hydrogen for diesel)
3. The correct injecting sequence and timming to take full advantage of hydroxy injection.
This work is costing many tens of thousands of dollars...but given that no one has every bothered to get these stats it will be interesting. Just for fun we will measure how much gas it takes to run a 5hp engine and effects on the power output. For this I will build a waste spark remover and timming adjuster.
i wont be able to publically release the exact data but i will generalise on the outcomes. I wont be online for a while as I have to leave for the USA on the weekend.
Thanks Bluey and Alasks...PS Fred you better come and visit Zsa Zsa is cooking lunch.
Mark

[AlaskaStar]

I did one time run my diesel on Hydrogen, as well as Natural gas with a Spark Ignition System. Here's How I did it:

I bought 8 NGK # CM-6 Spark Plugs. I purchased 8 Adapters (metric) of plumbing sorts to be fitted into the Glow-plug holes. Installed Plumbing Adapters, and installed spark plugs to adapters.

Next, I removed the Injection pum itself and all the lines. I left the injectors in the heads, but put "Scratch Protectors" that I procured at a local hardware store over the tops of the injectors to prevent dirt and crap from getting into it.

I borrowed a Magneto from a 1936 Ford Truck that has a V-8, and it has 2 mounting bolts directly opposite , and my injection pump has 3 mounting bolts evenly spaced around a circle.

After several hours of fiddling with the mag to determine which of the 3 mounts i was going to use a single bolt to mount it with, and the same went for the 3 bolts in the drive gear.

I had to buy "Solid Core" type plug wire, which was just RAW material, and had to buy all the ends as well, and make a set of wires (Not an easy task- it crimps and ruins too easy). Then after all was connected, test to make sure that timing was "Close" to where it needed to be, and started the vehicle.

The results were that it did run. the gears for the pump and pump mounting housing had to be replaced when I was done. the performance was not very good, as I had no way to control the throttle, It rattled, popped, and banged erratically, as I must have been off a few degrees.

AlaskaStar

[ElectroGasMan]

Hi AlaskaStar

My question IS?

Could a diesel like that run without rattling?

[AlaskaStar]

Well...That's a very tricky question. IDI and DI type diesels both rattle, but the technology today now has a DI Series Common Rail, Electronic inject system that has fuel pressures exceeding 60,000 PSI, and side by side to a gas job, you can't even tell the difference in the sound of the engine. Smooth, quiet....powerful.....

So I am not going to say that it would be impossible, but I know there is much room for improvements.

So I can easily fathom them running virtually silent, and having loads of power.

Check out the CYCLONE Engine....Smooth, VIBRATIONLESS, and powerful, used NO TRANSMISSION to get power to Wheels.

Now apply to Diesel Technology.

AlaskaStar

[Bluey]

Hi Folks,
I would just like to correct a small error made by Alaskastar. He suggested, " to leave the injection pump AT IDLE.....".ALL diesels are equipped with governors, (the reason will become clear)so if the throttle was set at idle and gas introduced we could expect an increase in speed, the governors would respond and reduce fuel to zero. No fuel no noise.

IF we were foolish enough to LOCK the control linkage (eg rack) in a low delivery position, we must assume that at some time we are going to get an increase in RPM. Because this reduces leakage past the pumping plungers and because of the additional inertia, the fuel deliveries increase, this causes an increase in speed which increases fuel input,which increases....... You have a runaway engine that CANNOT be stopped unless you eliminate air or smash the fuel pipes. You have seconds in which to do this and it cannot be done from the driver's seat.
Believe me it is a frightening experience.

I once acted as an insurance adjudicator in such a case where the pump had been incorrectly calibrated. The driver 'lost it' on a down hill run, the flywheel exploded, dropped the gearbox on the road, spread the chassis 10 inches, and left a stunned look on the driver's face that stayed for some days. His dog that was sitting on the other seat did not fare so well.

Diesel Injection Techs may not be the brightest light in the street but they do have responsibilities, so PLEASE DO NOT TAMPER unless you know what you are doing. In many instances there may be a sensible solution.
Regards
Blue

[AlaskaStar]

Hey Bluey!

I suggested leaving the pump at idle to prevent excess pump wear when introducing more fuel. not everyone is very well versed in Diesel Technology, as well known no lube in the pump, means...well frankly, not much left of the pump. Diesel fuel isn't very much of a lubricant, so what little the pump actually gets is pretty slim.

Have you played with the LOW SULFUR DIESEL (VLSD) Fuel in older rigs?
I have seen the effects, and it isn't very pretty. Locals here pour 15W40 DELO into the tank prior to filling up to prevent this type of damage.

I'm going to be working on an Older IDI 7.3 IHC Navistar, as it is severely out of time, and needs other work performed (rear axles need rebuilt, Air bags added to leaf springs, the transfer case rebuilt, and brakes with new parking cables)

Other than that, not much else going on here other than work, work, work...

AlaskaStar

[Bluey]

[Bluey]