Hi! New to the party (science fair project)

[Fastrak]

Hello -

My daughter (7th grader) has once again reached science fair project time. After watching "Who Killed the Electric Car" and "An Inconvenient Truth", Alexie wanted to focus on an alternative energy project. After considerable discussion and research, we came up with a proposal that seems both challenging and thought provoking.

I am posting for 3 reasons;
1) To introduce us
2) To solicit input on the project
3) To make some safety related queries

I have applied for a "project page" on this site so that anyone who is so inclined can keep an eye on us and maybe lend some experience.

The proposal (drawings will be included on the project page)

Alexie's project is to study the affects of differing frequencies of magnetic pulses on the electolytic dissociation on water. She will make a cell (or series of cells) using Lye as a catalyst (thanks for the info in the forum that warned about salt!!!!) There were comments about maximizing surface area of the electrodes and she had proposed using computer heat sinks. The magnetic pulses will be generated with an automotive ignition system and coil. If a spark plug wire is wound around the dissociation cell then a pulse will be created every time the plug fires. There is an Ignition system tester that allows you to digitally control the frequency of the spark from 533Hz up to 15KHz. Alexie wrote a letter to a manufacturer requesting a loan of equipment (we should get an answer on Thursday or Friday). Instead of using a car battery for the experiment, she is going to use a battery charger as a power supply to remove the variable of the changes in the battery's power. Dissociation rate will be measured by the amount of time required to displace a certain volume of water from an inverted beaker or test tube.

Flow of the experiment;

1) Each run will have a fresh fill of distilled water with a portion of Lye added.

2) Take 3 base line readings of the dissociation rate with no magnetic pulses

3) Take readings of dissociation rates with magenetic pulse frequencies varying from 533Hz to 15KHz

4) If time permitting, position coil in differing positions relative to the electrodes and repeat step 3

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PROJECT QUESTIONS:
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Is there a much more interesting area to look at within this field? AlaskaStar mentioned applying layered dc waves to the electodes to cause oscillation of the water molecules which also apparantly keeps the electrodes clear of clingy bubbles.

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SAFETY QUESTIONS:
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What the heck do you do with the gas????? After she has taken a reading, Alexie is left with an inverted container filled with explosive gas. Should she just let it go outside?

Is there any danger with her breathing some of the generated (hydroxy?) gas?

The spark plug in the test rig is some sort of sealed simulator and should not make an external spark.

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CREDIT WHERE ITS DUE
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We really appreciate the volumes of information that you all have posted. Alexie and I have spent considerable time reading on this site over the past few days. Alexie reproduced the styrofoam cup / 9v / paperclip rig that Chris? chronicled so will in his Electrolysis Basics article on this site.

The (very limited ) knowledge we have of electrolysis experimentation is from the posts of you folks on the site. Alexie and I are both ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS and as such welcome any constructive input. If she is going to deviate from the procedure detailed above, I will ask her to post to the project page first (to give time for someone to issue a warning).

I really like the open exchange of information that this forum provides and would prefer to keep correspondence on this project available for all to see (and hopefully help someone else!). If, however, you have suggestions but are concerned about anonymity you are more than welcome to email us directly at aaron@kypipe dot com .


Thanks to all who took the time to read this post and for sharing your ideas. A BIG thanks to the persons responsible (Chris?) for creating and maintaining this site.

-Alexie & Dad (Aaron)

[Etownlax]

One thing... Don't breath in the gases! They might contain mostly hydrogen or oxygen BUT they will contain lye, from the lye you used as your electrolyte. And lye is BAD stuff.

You can just vent the gas outside when the test is done. Depending on how much you produce it is relitively safe.

One suggestion would be to use graduated cylinders as they are more accurate. What I would say is to use a beaker as the base and have a graduated cylinder upside-down in the beaker. Then measure how long it takes to get the "hydrogen/oxygen level" down to a pre-determined spot.

The heatsink idea is a great idea however it won't hold up. I too have tried this and I believe most are made of aluminum so first off it will corode(sp?) and won't work too well but with lye added it will create extra hydrogen. When you add aluminum to a mixture of water and lye it creates hydrogn because water reacts with aluminum but normally it won't because of a protective layer of aluminum oxide. The lye destroys this layer exposing the aluminum to the water and making hydrgen. So you want to stay away from aluminum in short.

Hope this helps,
-Randy

[Fastrak]

Perhaps due to the nastiness of the Lye, she can use baking soda.
Are there any health issues with the gases from this combo?

As there seems to be a consensus from others' work, she decided that equal sized pieces of 316 Stainless, 16 gauge will be used for the electrodes.

The whole magnetic pulse idea came from a interview with Herman Anderson on a video from the Water Fuel Museum. Anyone have a prediction on the effect of the magnetic pulses on the electrolysis rate?

As an impromptu trial this evening, Alexie used a battery charger, baking soda, and water w/a little dish soap in a bucket to make more exploding bubbles.

Based on the slow production rate I am wondering if she will have to make a series cell (unless she wants to sit around for hours at a time for each trial).

In terms of construction simplicity, is there a design on the web for a simple series cell that someone can point us to? I dont think that Alexie is capable of the shop precision for one of the Bob Boyce designs

[kevinsatterfield]

Hi..i just found this link...im not sure you wanna go and start order'n parts and spending a lot of money but this place sells wat seems like everything to do with hydroxy.

http://www.oweld.com/prodotti/spare/spa ... s_list.htm

[kevinsatterfield]

I wuld like you to reconsider doing an electrolysis xpieriment unless its just with 2 pencils and a 9v battery for yer daughters project.

[kumaran]

[Bob Boyce]

[glenn_aircooled]

There is a lot to learn, I imagine that you have not got much time , thus
the name " fast track".
I will throw in some annoying comments:
1.heatsinks whilst great for surface area- are usually aluminium. If you
use Lye which is recommended - then it will eat the alloy very rapidly.
2.your production will be of highly explosive gas. It needs to be Vented outside
of the room you will be in [ or Hall - you will need to be near a window].
3. You will need to construct a Bubbler - as Gas Fuse.
4. A few have tried car ignition coils and found that they do not
carry enough current to achieve electrolysis.
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Now all the negatives aside - I think this is a Great project. I always
like to see people get this Technology into the Public eye.
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My suggestion is to get two stainless plates, insulated spacer them apart
3mm . Use draino that is High Concentration of NaOH. mix just a little at first
then maybe later try fair bit mixed in " Distilled Water".
Put the Coil across it to see if you do get any bubbles before going
to any more trouble. Be Warned - you do not want to make sparks
above the plates as the gas is bubbling out.! Connections Must be
Secure, plates must not touch each other.! Do initial testing outside.
Then if functioning - can be contained and expelled outside through a hose [ after Bubbler].

[Looking In]

[Fastrak]

[Nick]

[Fastrak]

[Bob Boyce]

[Fastrak]

[ElectroGasMan]