Low energy Input, mass hydrogen output methods in use.

[Orange_Crusader]

I hope it is that simple.

Adding them together to make H2 is easy. Pulling them apart is harder. The metal can stay in an ion form, not an oxide, but the sulfate will have to be recreated as H2 gas. I mentioned UV light, which is a powerful catalyst, and could help to bond more H2 to the sulfate. This basically gives us an eternal acid (or near so), and a metal which should be easily reusable. Sounds very OU to me. I'll comment and reply to the other posst when I have time tomorrow, but it's 11 right now (daylight savings, so it feels like 12) and I need some sleep. Glad to see this getting attention, and I hope I can get some experiments done soon as well.

[zendog]

Hi All-

I don't know how simple this process is or isn't yet, but then why go ahead and complicate it unnecessarily?
Yeah, my rain water could be pretty filthy especially where I live - its more like sulphuric acid rain! I need yet to try using some quality stainless steel electrodes and some distilled water.
Meanwhile I have placed a clean piece of copper into 95-98% sulphuric acid and cannot see any reaction at all yet but will leave it for a while and see what happens. I did also place a piece of solder into the solution also and it is slowly eating it away for sure- must react with the tin content perhaps? Wanted to try just in case some might be thinking of soldering components that may be eventually submerged in the solution.
I am now trying some copper electrodes in the water/gypsum mix. It seems OK so far but is turning the solution a pretty green/blue color - copper sulphate I suppose? I want to see what happens to the copper electrodes over a good period of time.
If one uses coiled copper tubing as electrodes then one can even attach plastic tubes to the ends of the hydrogen producing copper line to collect and send the gas to the bubbler or carb or whatever and thereby having easily seperated the oxygen/hydrogen gases. The other gases that form on the outside of the tubes inside the solution can be simply vented off or collected as hydroxy gas and used also.
Even if copper isn't good enough in this application it can still help in the designing of the system and then one can move to some more appropriate material later on. I have seen stainless steel tubes somewhere too.
I guess one could use lead from old batteies also since it doesn't react with sulphuric acid if you don't mind working with the stuff.
well, just some more thoughts for fun....

[thrival]

I found that using calcium carbonate and H2SO4 reacts not at all until
you dilute the acid at least 50% by weight with water, then things really
get going. The gas is just CO3 tho (found that reaction online); I knew
it produced gas but didn't know what kind. Anyway one is left with calcium
sulfate.

Kevin: calcium is a metal, calcium sulfate is a reacted compound with acid.
The two can be driven apart again by electrolysis. Question is, does that
also make hydrogen, same as when they come together?

Microwave frequency across, catalyst between the electrodes and shorting
the electrodes together to create a cascade reaction in the chemicals,
seems to be what AlaskaStar was saying, if I read him right. Seems
counter-intuitive I'll admit.

zendog:

I agree it's important to keep it simple. If making hydrogen and
regeneration can be done with just one material, I'm all for it. I don't
know how that can also make "lots of electricity in the process." ...as
AlaskaStar claimed. And he did say look for extreme opposite potentials
in the material amps-per-gram tables, which is what led me to looking at
two materials instead of one. Yet he did commend Chris for using
similar materials (ss) for electrodes. I think we're close to solving
the full mystery, but not quite there yet.

My concern about your using copper pipe is you're adding another
variable to your mix. You may not see any reaction between the copper
and acid until you add water.

Orange:

You mention UV, but I think a capacitive field may have the same effect,
and isn't that what two plates in close proximity are? Both UV and
capacitive fields add lots of energy to hydrogen gas, once made. Zendog
may be right that close 1 mm tolerances aren't necessary, but you sure
can't beat them for sheer compactness and largest surface area in a small
space, which is what AlaskaStar said works best (see ant's kettle.) In an
H reactor, one might have similar rolled plates (or UV bulb) above the
brew, to further energize the gas.

[zendog]

Hi all-

I have been placing test materials in 95% sulphuric acid and also in some 50% acid solution. Haven't detected any gas from samples of lead, copper and silver so far in either solution but have to wait more time to see what they look like. Although they all look a bit darkened in color but then a mighty pile of heat was created when I added the acid solution to the water to dilute it to 50%.
A warning to those who don't know. You will want to add the acid to the water when diluting sulphuric acid. Otherwise its quite a dangerous reactive mess splashing nasties everywhere. Wear goggles and other protective gear when working with this stuff.
Materials might look OK just sitting in the acid but when you apply the electrical current to it then it can change everything. Your nice looking electrodes can turn into slimy. discolored gunky things suprisingly quick and one(the anode or cathode) might even start reacting with the acid after a while and get eaten!
Also want to mention again that I can't see anybody wanting for any reason to put electrodes into say 50% sulphuric acid and zapping it because the fumes are noxious. If you must then make sure you are in a well ventilated area. I sure hope this procedure will soon be taken off the list of possibilities.

Thrival-
Lead is a time tested material that can sit in sulphuric acid and water pretty happily, right? Why not make our plates from that by just robbing old batteries?
Also since we already have a metal - the calcium - then wouldn't the lead become the second metal? When you put the power to it doesn't it make colloidal particles and the such?
more to report later...

[thrival]

[thrival]

[zendog]

[Highway]

@all

I remember that AlaskaStar said we have to look for the most oposites of the two materials.

I think that i have one of them found: Potassium!

url=http://oupower.com/phpBB2/posting.php?mode=reply&t=121&sid=e11fd6fa824a12e56190798935cc108a]Check this link out[/url]

AlaskaStar explained that the material is available for round about 10$/ton. Is it possible that he means KCL? Should be very cheap and is used to get Potassium.



What do you think about it?

Greetings,

Highway

[Highway]

Sorry the first link was wrong, here the correction.



Highway

[thrival]

zendog:

No one's mind is any better than another's, only how we choose to use it.

There's a pulse circuit from egaspower group, in my electronics folder.
Chris has electronics stuff posted in his, Bob Boyce. Others here can help
you no doubt. Also there are software frequency generators you can run
through your soundcard, good up to around 50kHZ (good enough for
Keeley's frequency.) AlaskaStar mentioned microwave. That can be a
little hazardous without proper shielding, altho he did say the power input
was quite low.

[Dm66]

[thrival]

I have a request to put out there. Does anyone reading this forum,
have sufficient scientific background to explain to me:

1) where to find list of elements and/or chemical compounds' energy
potentials, positive or negative, that can be compared with one
another?

2) how to read/make sense of the scientific jargon by which those
numbers are designated?

I'm sure many readers would benefit from this. Linus Pauling covers it
in his General Chemistry but I must confess not getting all of it.
Wendell Latimer's book of Oxidative Reactions listed a lot of numbers
but not in a way I could make sense of. Anyone?

[Orange_Crusader]

As in the combining capacities of each element (ionic charges, how it forms compounds), or something else? We're partway through thermochemistry (including enthalpy, which is useful for this). I can explain the combining capacities in simple, grade 9-10-ish terms, or the higher version, which explains how and why they bond, in a lot of jargon that is gibberish to anyone else, if that's what you want. Fun stuff.

Any periodic table, and a small table of elements with multiple ion charges and combining capacities will show you how to work out a ratio for a compound using any combination of elements.

I'm only in last year (grade 12) chemistry, and there are several people here with university or college education who are able to explain the complicated parts better than I can, along with some parts i don't even know, but I can do basics and some parts obove that well.

The numbers make a lot of sense once you know what they mean and how they work, and everything that's been mentioned so far in this thread is pretty much basics, how things bond, why, etc. Solubility rules are a grade 11 matter here, but it's as simple as one table for any compound. I'll be posting with bond strenghts and energy needed to break them as I learn it. I wish I knew all this already, but what can I do?

This offer goes out to anyone who is curious or wants to learn more about anything in this thread that I can address (and stuff that's coming up, I'm sure there's be some who will need explanations or a litte help, no offense). Simply ask, and ye shall recieve. My email is orangecrusader (at) gmail.com, or you can post it here is it's a smaller question, or a question and contact information. If there's a lot of demand, I'll try to get to everyone's as soon as possible. Glad to help, if I can.


Oddly enough, Linus Pauling was my chemistry teacher's university chemistry teacher. Invented the VSEPR theory in the 80's (how atoms bond, structures, strenghts, etc.), and wrote several books. It's a small world.

[thrival]

[Orange_Crusader]