Low energy Input, mass hydrogen output methods in use.

[thrival]

Ant:

If the acid in car batteries is contaminated with lead (I'm not
sure that's true, or if the amounts are significant enough to
make a difference) you could probably electroplate the lead
out.

[AntDavison]

thanks for the good advice, thrival

yeah, the CuS04 is nice and easy to get, as is gypsum / gyb wall products
Im not a chemist, so thought i could chuck some metals into acid, until they dont dissolve anymore, and then use that as my electrolytes ... but i'm not stupid, and eager to learn, so all the elctrochemical books i got will keep me busy, but i want to move from theory to practice

i am quite safety conscious though, and impure chemicals scare me a bit. just pisses me off a little, that a country that touts itself as clean and green makes it so difficult to buy basic materials to move up to the next level of energy ... will have to vote for the " greens" in the upcoming election.

your advice about buying in company's names is good ... also i teach some (maths and) science to home schoolers, so know it can be difficult to buy some materials, i just have to keep trying, put out the right energy and find the right and 'friendly' people; telling them what i want to do without resevation,l and keep on desseminating information i learn... information in forums can be wrong, but the strength is in sharing infromamtion freely and peer review and criticism, as i, believe having travelled and lived in a few countries (including the very polluted taiwan), that we are all equal, all human, all the same, and as a species, very very talented

peace be with us all

ant

[thrival]

Yes well the ant(s) will tell you, their strength is in numbers, and communal support!

[mc19]

Could you not use sodium sulphate or potassium sulphate instead of calcium sulphate. These metals being higher in the electrode potential table than calcium, would they not provide a faster reacting catalyst? Would sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide produce the so called fertilizer (K2SO4 and NaSO4) and water when mixed with sulphuric acid as Alaskastar suggested?

[TechJohn]

Ant,

You can find sulphuric acid at auto supply stores like Autozone. They sell battery acid for about $4.00 per 32 ounces. I believe that electrolyte is about 37% acid ( I'm not sure). BE CAREFUL with this acid. I have read that pure Ca added to concentrated H2SO4 can explode! Also take care if you need to add water to the mix...

As far as chemicals be sure to check to see which reactions can go both ways in a redox reaction ... some only will go one direction.

TJ

[TechJohn]

thrival,
Previously you mentioned salt bridges as a less expensive way to transfer ions. You can make a salt bridge to connect the cells fairly easily. Basically it is a saturated mixture of saltwater with agar added to make a gel. The mixture will have to be heated so the agar sets up. Then this mixture is injected into a glass tube the might look like an inverted U. the ends of the glass tube then are sealed with something porous like gortex or porcelain. This will make an electrolytic connection with the two solutions.
This is much cheaper than membranes. I am not sure about efficiency differences.

TJ

[thrival]

MC19:

Potassium & sodium are not too friendly with water when the sulfate is
separated from them.

TechJohn:

Ant lives in NZ; they won't sell him acid 'cause kids make drugs with it
(sic).

I don't know enough chemistry to know if a salt-bridge will work
(mainly for fear it could contaminate the reaction), but I might try
agar or gelatin or some other water-gelling material with acid. I
think the inverted U tube or Ant's coil is a good idea because
gravimetrics does most of the separation.

If the ends of the U reach near the botton of the containers, with
right-angle flanges on the ends, should keep most of the gas out
of the tube. Granted a U tube doesn't provide the surface area
we would all like.

Have since learned that sulfuric acid attacks unfired clay. Fired terra-
cotta I'm not sure. Gore-tex sounds like a good idea but I've not
worked with it. Can it stand up to acid? H2SO4 eats lots of stuff.

[thrival]

Ant:

KevinSatterfield came up with a great idea for the union.
VERY simple. Send me your email and I'll send you a pic.

thrival at graffiti dot net

[AntDavison]

[TechJohn]

[TechJohn]

[AntDavison]

thrival,

found lots of sulphates at the hardware/garden supply supermarket type place .. the had K, Ca Al, Fe(ii) Cu, flowers of, etc sulphates, etc , etc. for a peson not responsible to look after a plant, it was very exciting. Found some cheap stainless pot scourers that might work well, lots of surface area ..., but may trap gases (operating to the similar, though alumnium material "explosafe", which is used to fill fuel takes, and reduce the possibility of explosions). maybe gas lines could also be packed with stainless pot scourers to reduce flashback damage. in the auto store i got some muffler exhaust repair kits, which had a roll of thin "long life" steel ... looks and acts like stainless, maybe they just used that term to tell the consumer if wont rust, or maybe its a cheap stainless ... time will tell if it rusts or corrodes. they even had a big hose clamp spot welded to them., just need a couple of gear wheels to corrogate that thin stainless, or find a corrogating machine

one thing im trying is to bolt two different sized unglassed flower pots togother (only the inner one is necessary) to form a coaxial cell with one chamber sitting within the other ... migh be a more robust and more easily contructed cell. Will try packing those chambers with stainless pot scourers. each cell could be charged initilally by an electroplating action, with the other electrode mostly being a plastic tube sheathed stainless bolt, with an unsheathed portion being in a small medicine container, which has been drilled out, and can sit near or in the electrolyte surrounded stainless pot scourer material with out touching it electrically, and iron filings* from bought from the magnet shop might accelerate the inital charging of the ferrous half cell ... arggh too many thoughts.

*(i mixed some aluminium powder i got from a model shop, and used in castings, (which i bought to make an aluminum filler with superglue), with dry copper sulphate .. it got quite warm, added water and it got hot an boiled over)

also metal sulphates in acid are used to give colour to already cast concrete, so maybe you could use those 1'x6"x6" concrete blocks with two big holes in them as a low tech battery enclosure, as it may also be permeable to sulphate ions ... fill up your swimming pool with these blocks and make a mega battery!

might try a find a potter who can fire me some nice unglassed pottery cylinders ... maybe mix some sulphate salts with the clay ... maybe reinforce with 1/2" long (single filament / ) loose chopped strand fibre glass, like they use for reinforcing concrete .. i have 10kg of that material left over from some epoxy casting i did a few years ago

[surfcurve]

[Orange_Crusader]

[taggert]