Low energy Input, mass hydrogen output methods in use.

[thrival]

Hi Ant.

Well I really don't deserve much kudos. Thank Linnard Griffin for posting his patent apps and movies, kww, murray, BEMET and all the many others who chimed in with their ideas.

Your coil idea sounds good, and for the gravimetric reasons, will probably work. How about an S'?

I think a simple porous, mechanical separator, creating two box compartments could also work; something that acid won't eat.

[AntDavison]

hi thrival

there's probably many variations on that .... maybe a "S" or more spun around 90 degrees, to form a shape that looks like two heatsink shapes placed togeother

have been following up your zeolite idea, and am getting some samples i hope to make into a clay and fire, just my gut feeling is that a porous membrane will have more "resistance" than a "gravity" interface (a la expensive multi-coloured multi-alcohol multi-layered cocktail), so you might get less volts out of the cell ... only way really to tell is to try it ... i might also playaround with unglazed flower pots and firing plaster-of-paris, but will try the "gravity-interface-in-a-coiled-tube" first

just when i look at electrochemical membranes / bi-polar membranes / dialysis membranes / electrodialysis membranes ... the chemistry is a bit beyond me and they all look very complex ... if possible, low tech is best 'cause its easier to replicate ... rust/iron + calcium/gypsum/quickline + sulphuric(battery) acid + two plastic jars + flexible plastic tube ... is nice and low tech

ant

[thrival]

Ant:

Remember that experiment where you fill a glass of water
to the brim, put a coaster on top, then invert the glass,
remove the coaster, and the water stays in the glass by
vacuum pressure? So how about an inverted U connecting
your two chambers? Just a thought.

[thrival]

Uhh, forgot to add, might go like this:

U - (inverted U) - U

The inverted U would be in the middle, between two
regular U's. the ends of the regular U's would be plumbed
to the bottom of your containers. That way you would
have gravimetric separation, free flow of ions through
electrolyte, and no gas entering the tube.

[AntDavison]

Hiya Thrival

thats a good experiment

i think with the inverted u tube, the trick will be to maintain fluid thru-out the tube, ie, so you dont get an air bubble separating the electrolytes

with the coiled tube design, or S-on its side the it may be advantageous to put a T-connector at the top/bottom of the middle of the coil, with the 3rd part of the T connected to an(other) upstanding tube, whose height is greater than the height of the two electrolyte cells ... this could be connected to a vacuum pump to make sure there is no air bubbles present in the link, and then the connection to that vaccum source would be closed

the idea of the coiled portion or sideways S shape (which is of course the same as a coil) is that there will be a lot of tolerance as to where the graviometric interface actually is

if the height of the coil is just a little less than the electrolyte level then there will be less chance of the electrolytes getting mixed up in different portions of the tube

recalling how they filled up the gravity daniell cell (from memory, i think) the CuSO4 was heavier and put in first, and filled half way up, and the copper cathode was in the bottom 1/3 of the cell. The zinc anode was in the top 1/3. the ZnSO4, was then carefully and slowly poured on top, like an expensive muli-coloured multi-alcohol multi-layered cocktail. Then it was left to stand and settle for an hour. Good for c19th stationary telegraph applications but probably not useful for a moving car going up and down hills

[AntDavison]

possible pulse charging circuits

google search : marcus wagner pulse charger

http://peswiki.com/energy/Directory:MWC ... :Iceweller
http://peswiki.com/energy/Image:Version351.gif
http://peswiki.com/energy/Directory:MWC

[thrival]

Ant:

Whatever design you go with, I think the electrolyte issue is easier than might be apparent. Remember that we're only dealing with dilute sulfuric acid in both chambers, so only one electrolyte in fact. Calcium sulfate and iron sulfate are both dry chemicals until you add water. The crossover pipe might contain simply water. When the cell is regenerated, the metals release their electrolyte to the water.

[NeoBokrug]

[thrival]

[AA3PX]

[kevinsatterfield]

[AntDavison]

[thrival]

[AntDavison]

[thrival]

Forgot to mention: if you're working with sulfates like gypsum,
iron or copper sulfate, etc. [/b]you don't need any acid!
Think about it; the acid has already bound (chelated) to the metal.
"It's in there." All you'll need to add is water. When you charge the
cell, the acid will liberate itself into the water. So you won't need
to buy acid, unless you want a stronger brew.

Now remember, plaster-of-paris/gypsum/Ca-H2SO4, sets up
hard upon adding water. Now if you break the block up into small
chunks and blend into a slurry in a bucket, it won't set up again.
Then again, a hard panel of gypsum might well serve as it's own
membrane.