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OUPower.com • View topic - My PWM3F & Cone Plate Stack idea

My PWM3F & Cone Plate Stack idea

This forum is for discussing anything related to electrolysis and electrolyzer designs.

My PWM3F & Cone Plate Stack idea

Postby binarybuddha » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:13 am

Greetings all,
I've lurked on the forums for some time now, and have assembled a PWM3F which I hope to test soon. =)

Here's a few thousand words on how that went:
Parts:


Tools/Setup:


1/2 Done:


All Done:


I noticed the 8-leg IC socket wasn't on the parts list, and I forgot to order the smallest precision cap from Digi-key, but the local instrument repair/fluke dealer seemed to think he had a suitable unit.

Without knowing a great deal about how to shop from an o-scope, I ended up picking an owon PDS-5022S from eBay. Shipped from China for a ton of money, but ended up at my doorstep in 3 days.
Image
It's LCD response time is really bad, so measuring non-repeating waveforms isn't very impressive, (like sampling audio output from the soundcard), but stable, repeating waves are nice and bright, and the unit is quite portable.

For a cell plate stack, I had an idea of using conical sections of 316 stainless, and wanted to post them to everyone for their thoughts, especially given my extremely limited knowledge of pressure/hydraulics/etc.

Here's a few thousand words first:

In a nutshell, the idea is to use the gas being produced at the base of each conical section, rising towards a hole in the very tip of each cone, as the dielectric separator between cells, with return water pressure dribbling down each plate. This pressure could likely be achieved by extending the tubular housing vertically and use gravity to create the downward water pressure to re-fill each cell in a drip manner, but maintain seperation from each other from the rising bubbles. To ensure the plates didn't touch, and were water-tight, small strips of plastic/pvc/whatever would be glued to the top of each cone, then the stack would be assembled with a ring of silicon or other sealant around the edge before the next cone is placed. This would make the cone stack water-tight around the edge, and against the tube wall.

These wireframe renderings are to scale of 6"dia cones in a 4' tall tube.

At first, this idea seemed like way too much hassle of trying to size and gauge each cone-tip hole, but then I thought of 3 possible benefits if it worked out:
1) No moving parts for cell refill

2) Have the ability for a single fill point, with possibility of a circulation pump w/a filter, radiator perhaps?

3) Could be safer if backflash were get into the cell, as it's a bubbler by design.


In this proposal the million dollar questions are:

1) What size should each cone-tip hole be?

2) Should all cone-tip holes be the same size?
... I imagine the would need to be sized in an increasing scale, smallest on the bottom, largest on the top as each cell's gas will contribute to the next.

3) How could you make these cones?
I haven't worked much with stainless, however, I imagine you could start with a plate slightly larger that 6", drill a small hole in the center, then attach this plate to a drill press on it's slowest speed, then use a plasma cutter to make a precision circle whilst spinning on the drillpress. You then have a near-perfect disc with a centering hole.
The next step would be forming consistent cone shapes, for this I had envisioned making a ceramic mortar and pestle type press, although someone reading this might have a much better idea.
This press would have the positive of the cone mounted on a standard garage bearing press-fit machine, with the cone negative on the base.
The top cone could have a machined centering pin to ensure the plate was evenly pressed, and perhaps a lubricant could be applied to the press surfaces to make sure even pressure would be applied.

Here's a thousand words:


In closing, I would like to thank you, Mr. Bob Boyce for sharing your circuitry, and tutorial for assembly. I hope this post might demonstrate good faith that I'm experimenting for my own goals, and providing useful information back to the community. Bob, if you happen by this post, and find it in your heart to share the hookup diagram for the PWM I would be extremely grateful and excited to use it to test my cone plate stack idea.

Thank you all for the outstanding information and excitement on this forum.
e.m.a.i.l: oupower ( a t ) B i n a r y b u d d h a ( d o t ) c o m
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Postby Bob Boyce » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:34 am

Interesting stack design, but if you plan to run these in true series fashion they won't work right. You'll get gas production at the plate edges only due to major ion bypass of the central electrodes through the holes. This will also lead to high erosion of the electrodes at those edges. Every electrode pair (cell) must be electrically isolated from the next, as the electrolyte (water) is conductive, and will effectively short out the cell stack from end to end. The potential at the ends is so much stronger than that of the closer plates, that the majority of the ions will ignore the closer plates in favor of the stronger potential at the ends.

If you insist on a common bath series arrangement, then I suggest you take a look at the step-gap design put out by Eletrik1, and see if you can adapt it to your conical electrodes. The efficiency is nowhere near that of a true series cell stack, but they can serve reasonable well for a DC booster.

Resonance operation (PWM3 driven) requires a balanced cell stack impedance, which cannot be obtained when there are high leakage currents.
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Postby binarybuddha » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:53 am

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transformer cores

Postby Gustav22 » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:16 am

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Re: transformer cores

Postby chemelec » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:08 am

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Postby ElectroGasMan » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:11 pm

Michael in Kansas
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Postby chemelec » Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:22 pm

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Postby binarybuddha » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:05 pm

It's evident there are many variables to selecting the right toroidal core, and not being an expert in their materials and construction, would there exist a, perhaps existingly manufactured, core that would be ideal for use with the PWM3F circuit?

I did find this software:

Perhaps there are an ideal set of parameters that could be used with this software to determine the best construction dimensions/material, and/or submit to MicroMetals or similar mfg for construction quote?
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Postby Beshires1 » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:17 pm

Maybe this can help someone. http://www.intusoft.com/mag.htm
"I've done so much, For so long, With so little, I'm now capable of doing practically anything with nothing."
http://sites.google.com/site/diydcmotors/
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Postby Bob Boyce » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:43 am

Yes, I am looking at a micrometals product, specifically the T650-52 core.

http://www.micrometals.com/samples_index.html

Thanks to RichSAS for the heads up on this.

I had more mil-spec wire (teflon insulated, silver plated copper, solid wire) arrive, so I will be able to put one of these cores to the test when they arrive.

I have non-hydroxy related research plans for those laminated iron cores, so they won't go to waste ;-)

Bob
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Postby chemelec » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:02 am

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Postby Bob Boyce » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:20 am

Last edited by Bob Boyce on Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cores

Postby ElectroGasMan » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:24 pm

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Re: Cores

Postby chemelec » Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:18 am

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Re: Cores

Postby ElectroGasMan » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:52 pm

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